does the run count?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Shmuelg


Personally, I think it's fine both ways. You see, in SB the baseline is only 60 ft, so the runner SHOULD run home quickly once he is forced because of a walk. He didn't do it, and should suffer the consequences (no run).

But in baseball, the path is 90 ft, a lot longer, so if the runner didn't get home, I'd cut him some slack.

Just my $0.02 on it.

Shmuel

AAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

What difference does the base distance make? Both runners have to advance the same distance.

[Shmuelg]

I think it makes quite a difference. As someone who has umped and played both, it makes a world of differnce in the game itself.

In baseball, there is usually plenty of time to get the out at first, and as such an infielder usually has plenty of time to "look back" a runner. In softball, it's much quicker, and a mere glance is all that's possible, sometimes not even that.

Furthermore, this is one reason that leading off isn't allowed in SB. It's alot easier to steal a base from 60 ft. away minus lead-off than it is from 90 ft. away minus leadoff.

So, in this case, it should be expected that a Softball B3 should get home on time, and if not, then he's not running as well as his opposition is playing, and deserves to lose that run.

[mcrowder]

Schmuel is right...

When I umpire baseball at the plate, if a runner makes it ALMOST home, say 86 feet, before being tagged, I always call him safe.... cause 90' is just so darn far to run.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Here's a shock, I don't give a damn about baseball, I was discussing distances.

The time it takes the runner from third to reach home as it relates to the time it takes the runner from second to reach third is the same whether the bases are 60', 90', 120' or a mile. Both runners must cover the same distance, so there is no rational reason to support the statement below.

Personally, I think it's fine both ways. You see, in SB the baseline is only 60 ft, so the runner SHOULD run home quickly once he is forced because of a walk. He didn't do it, and should suffer the consequences (no run).

But in baseball, the path is 90 ft, a lot longer, so if the runner didn't get home, I'd cut him some slack.

BTW, I don't care what game you are talking about, it isn't up the to the umpire to "cut him some slack", but for the runner to perform to the level it takes to win.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Schmuel is right...

When I umpire baseball at the plate, if a runner makes it ALMOST home, say 86 feet, before being tagged, I always call him safe.... cause 90' is just so darn far to run.

I hope this is a poor attempt at a joke
If now, jeez, please don't show up to work with me.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by scottk_61

I hope this is a poor attempt at a joke
If now, jeez, please don't show up to work with me.

JMO, but no, it was not a poor attempt at a joke.

It was a pretty good attempt at a joke (of the sarcasm variety)!

[Shmuelg]

IRISH wrote: "The time it takes the runner from third to reach home as it relates to the time it takes the runner from second to reach third is the same whether the bases are 60', 90', 120' or a mile. Both runners must cover the same distance,"

Hmmmmm . . . I see what you mean there.

That is, if R2 got to third and passed it, that means that it was possible, and R3 should have done the same thing, if he was running properly.

So, that means that R3, not having run properly (ie, fast enough), should suffer the consequences from that, and from the fact that the opposing team picked off R2, and the run should not score.

Correct?

[Shmuelg]

And to be clear, I'm not talking about "cutting him slack" wrt a judgement call, like Mcrowder said. I quite disagree with MC on what he said (86 ft, calling him safe, etc.).

I'm talking about legislating a rule. From that point of view, I think we can take into account other definitions of the game (such as leading off or not, base distances, etc). For instance, Softball has a safety base at first, and baseball does not. Softball has the ball dead when the pitcher has it in the circle, but baseball does not. Slowpitch has the ball dead after a walk and strikeout, it also has a 65 ft. baseline (easier to hit the ball hard), things like that.

Baseball has explicity legislated this situation stating that the run counts. Softball has not, and it seems from the softball rules that this run should NOT count, the third out having been made before R3 touched the plate.

Personally, I think that SB and BB should have the same rules as much as possible. People confuse the two in any event, and players switch from one to the other. I mean, three outs in an inning, infield fly, foul/fair, three strikes and you're out, dropped third strike (FP), etc. Other rules obviously must be different: ball size, bats, gloves, field dimensions, leading off, pitching regulations, etc.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Shmuelg
Softball has the ball dead when the pitcher has it in the circle,

No, it doesn't.

Originally posted by Shmuelg
Personally, I think that SB and BB should have the same rules as much as possible.

Why? Avoid confusion? Ha!

[mcrowder]

Good grief.

You really think I was serious, Schmuel? No, it was sarcasm.

[whiskers_ump]

I am speechless to think anyone would think that MC was
seriouos with
his comment. However, I agree with Tom, it was good.

[mdntranger]

Actually, I think this was a very good and observant defensive play. I also think that this thread has lost sight of the original fact that R2 attained third base and placed themselves in jeapordy by advancing beyond the base. In that sense, distance between the bases has nothing to do with the rules or this interpretation. In ASA, as had been stated earlier, only the BR is 'entitled' to 1st base. Since the 'forced to advance' by the walk has been removed by the tag at third, the play turns into a timing play and therefore the run doesn't count.

[rhsc]

Good God, what does it take to make a point around here without having to explain every posible angle?
Im begining to understand why people just want the answers, dont agree, but man its like trying to buy a car; almost not worth it.
Just kiddin..see what I mean.

[Shmuelg]

Mc,

Yea, I thought you were serious. Can't tell with text messages.

Dak, yes I do think the rules should be the same as much as possible in order to avoid confusion. When people get togetgher to "play ball", there are many many many confusions and carry-overs from one sport to the other. If we avoid making different rules as much as possible, then it makes things easier.

For instance, why should obstruction be different in BB and SB (ISF)? BB the ball is dead, and in SB it's a "delayed dead ball", with the blue sticking out his left hand, waiting for the play to wind down, and only then he kills the ball and makes whatever corrections are necessary.

Why not use the safety base in BB? Makes sense to me in SB.

Runner hit by a ball in BB - depends on if the ball has passed the infielders, but in SB (ISF) it depends on if the ball passed ANY fielder. But this might be different in ASA and other organizations.

Truth is, you can argue both directions in almost each case, but I still think it would make umping a tad easier if there was some sort of general tendency to make the rules the same.

[Rachel]

OK so I cheated and e-mailed Billy P.

his response.
Speaking ASA
No. Once the runner rounding 3rd is tagged out it bcomes a timing play. The runner is no longer entitled home by being forced to advance on ball four because as soon as the runner rounded third and was tagged out it removed the force.

NCAA he's going to look it up.