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Sun Apr 03, 2005, 03:56pm
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hello
i really need some help in clarifying this situation. the bases are loaded and there are 2 outs. the batter receives 4 balls and as she is going to first, the runner from third is walking home but before the runner scores the pitcher notices the girl from second base rounded third and fires the ball over and she is tagged out. my question is does the run still count since the batter was initially walked. thanks tim
__________________
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions, they become habits. Watch your habits, they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Tim Harris 
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Sun Apr 03, 2005, 06:25pm
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The run scores. The runners are entitled to advance on a base-on-balls, therefore the runner on 3B scores, no matter what. The runner rounding third, was not out on a force. This is not a timing play.
Bob
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Sun Apr 03, 2005, 07:34pm
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tim,
It is funny you should ask this question, and funny also you are from Virginia! Have you been talking with Henry Pollard? (also from Virginia) Why is all this funny to me? The wife and I have just returned from our state ASA clinic (I mean JUST returned, about an hour ago!). Henry Pollard was the clinician, along with Kinard Latham. The weather was kinda rough so we did both days in the gym, but the group was so small this year we actually did a lot of rules stuff, and were encouraged to ask the "what if" scenarios. The question you posed is the identical question posed to us by Henry as a thought question. A couple of things to think about; When the runner from 2B was retired was the runner originally at 3B still forced home by the base on balls? The base on balls is an awarded base, but to whom? That would be the BR, other runners may move up if forced to do so! When the question was first posed, I beleive we all said yes the run scores, the runner at 3B was "awarded" the base. Then Henry looked straight at me and said, "Let me ask you another question" I said (smiling) "I don't think I want to answer any more questions!" We continued to discuss, and Henry did tell us ASA has interpreted this play as "run does NOT count", yet NCAA interprets as "run DOES count" (assumed to be based on the award of base on balls applies to all runners if forced). I don't remember this being said, but the Mrs does, This was an actual NCAA play. I am still gonna look hard at this play, cause I'm still a bit confused on it, I can see the case being made both ways but Henry's explanation was really clear as a bell. I just hope I never have that happen on the field!
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Sun Apr 03, 2005, 11:29pm
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Quote:
Therein lies the problem! There is no specific rule or case play which addresses this particular play. These are just two different interpretations using existing rules. It is a play you will probably never see happen, yet (if I heard correctly) it did happen at the NCAA level. If that is true, surely there will be at least a case play coming. The way Henry explained it is basically this way; BR recieves an awarded base on balls, the runners move up because they are forced, not awarded. The runner from 2B attains, then places herself in jeopardy by the over-run. She then is put out because the ball is still live, and she has no protection for an over-run such as one would have at first base. This happening before the R1 touches home negates her being forced home on the base on balls. Henry then challenged us to show why this would not be considered a timing play, or why under existing ASA rules the run would count. If the out on R2 at third is a "good out", how can a run be counted if made AFTER the third out? It just can't be justified. I do not know who made the NCAA interp, Henry mentioned Emily Alexander, but I'm not sure that was in reference to this play, but he was clear that NCAA had a differing interpretation from ASA on this play. I have no idea why NCAA would have a different ruling on this play, and count the run, but if I were told by my UIC to call it that way for NCAA, I would, or if there were a published interp I would call it that way, otherwise I gotta agree with Henry! He knows more about it than I do!
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Mon Apr 04, 2005, 11:40pm
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Quote:
Bob
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Tue Apr 05, 2005, 02:41am
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No
The Batter runner was awarded the base and the runners were forced to move because of this . Once they have reached that base and moved past it they put themselves in jeopardy. If an out is taken before a runner crosses home then a run doesnt count . In your reckoning then , if there are 2 out loaded bases and a batter hits a ball over the fence and with gleefull joy two players carry the batter around the bases 4 runs would count ?
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Tue Apr 05, 2005, 07:19am
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Quote:
Anyway, I think the run doesnt score cuz the idiot put himself in jeapordy and was put out legally before the fun scored, whats all the fuss. Nothing automatic, except to the batter awarded first.
__________________
Wearing the uniform doesnt make you an official anymore than going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger.
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Tue Apr 05, 2005, 07:58am
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I agree the two scenarios don't tie at all. One is live, one is dead.
But bluezebra is wrong this time (may be the first time I've seen that... it's at least the first time in quite a while). The award is SOLELY for the BR. The book says the other runners may advance 1 base without liability to be put out. But it does not AWARD the other runners a base. If a legitimate out occurs prior to the run scoring, there is no run.
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Tue Apr 05, 2005, 08:11am
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Quote:
__________________
Wearing the uniform doesnt make you an official anymore than going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger.
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Tue Apr 05, 2005, 09:58am
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I agree the situation is sticky, especially if the first time you ever think of the possibility is when it happens on the field and you are the PU!
I agree with the analysis that the BR's base is an award and that the ball is live (ASA 8-1-C), the other's are forced to advance and are not in jeopardy of being put out, and that runners may choose to attempt to advance beyond the one base at their own risk (8-5-A). Therefore barring a ruling to the contrary, the run does not score. (I can find no case plays dealing with 8-5-A.)
__________________
Tom
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Wed Apr 06, 2005, 05:54am
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Very interesting. I asked this question on the baseball forum as well, assuming we have the same rule in this case, but then I saw this from MLB rules:
"7.04 . . . Play. Two out, bases full, batter walks but runner from second is overzealous and runs past third base toward home and is tagged out on a throw by the catcher. Even though two are out, the run would score on the theory that the run was forced home by the base on balls and that all the runners needed to do was proceed and touch the next base . . . " Wow. And I thought the only difference between SB and BB was the size of the ball and the pitching. Nope. It is clear from the BB rules that the run counts, and it seems the consensus from THIS discussion here on the SB forum is that the run does not count. Personally, I think it's fine both ways. You see, in SB the baseline is only 60 ft, so the runner SHOULD run home quickly once he is forced because of a walk. He didn't do it, and should suffer the consequences (no run). But in baseball, the path is 90 ft, a lot longer, so if the runner didn't get home, I'd cut him some slack. Just my $0.02 on it. Shmuel
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