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Old Thu Jun 10, 2004, 08:15am
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How do you handle the following - heated dispute over a certain call. Coach goes to far and is ejected. He then says the magic word, "Protest" regarding the way a rule is being carried out.

Do you hear his protest, log it in the book, and then send him on his way?

Do you tell him he's wasting his minute he has to vacate the field?

Do you tell him to vacate the field and have his assistant come out to complete the protest?

Other?
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Old Thu Jun 10, 2004, 09:13am
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcrowder
How do you handle the following - heated dispute over a certain call. Coach goes to far and is ejected. He then says the magic word, "Protest" regarding the way a rule is being carried out.

Do you hear his protest, log it in the book, and then send him on his way?

Do you tell him he's wasting his minute he has to vacate the field?

Do you tell him to vacate the field and have his assistant come out to complete the protest?

Other?
Ejected=gone; Gone=not here; not here=silence d:-)

If the manager is ejected, they are no longer a participant in the game. Well, to protest a call, you must be a participant. So, no protest can be made by the ejected individual. Any other member of that team can do it, but I will not allow the ejected person to aid in that protest.

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Old Thu Jun 10, 2004, 06:30pm
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I agree with Mike, the ejected coach is no longer an individual with any rights or authority in that game. No protest accepted if it's coming from him. If the protest is coming from the "new" head coach, I'll listen, but the new one had better know exactly what he's protesting - and that's without any "coaching" from the ejected one.
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Old Thu Jun 10, 2004, 09:17pm
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Yep, if you're ejected, you got no rights except the rights to the path leading to the parking lot. We're not doing anything until the coach leaves the area. Out of sight, out of sound. Once it's clear the coach is cooperating and leaving, I'll listen to another coach.
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Old Fri Jun 11, 2004, 07:21am
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Totally disagree. If the Ump has the rule wrong..and the coach cannot convince him of it, and a few choice words ensue. I'm fine with the Ejection. But then to compound one error by making another is bad. Does not seem correct to say that you couldn't convince me I was wrong a minute ago, and now that I have ejected you, you know longer have a right to convince the league of it either thru the appropriate appeals proceedure. We can call time out, let the assistant coach talk to the ejected coach as he walks to the car..then record the protest eventually. After that the league see's that the protest was not worded correctly and the reason being "we the ump" didn't want to hear it from "Ejected Ed". My opinions come from the fact that I have to deal with about 16 Recreation Councils, and their Executive boards/Softball boards in February. All sorts of issues are discussed & my group of Umps is an integral part of their program. I realize some of you just ump..and do not attend winter meetings with these people we provide a service to. Thus almost being strangers..like in school ball..I can see where some of you want to put up a wall between us & them. I realize this may sound like I am on their side, when actually I am just on the side of fairness.
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Old Fri Jun 11, 2004, 09:08am
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Quote:
Originally posted by chuck chopper
Totally disagree. If the Ump has the rule wrong..and the coach cannot convince him of it, and a few choice words ensue. I'm fine with the Ejection. But then to compound one error by making another is bad....I am just on the side of fairness.
Don't take this wrong, but actually you are on the side of making a mockery of an ejection.

The ejection has nothing to do with the call. It has to do with USC (bad behavior) on the part of the coach. Once the coach has been ejected, he may no longer participate in the game. That means, since he is a coach, he may no longer coach. That includes filing a protest.

Your fundamental assumption is that the umpire was wrong and therefore the ejection may result in an improper protest being filed and therefore may result in, as you say, another error.

Well, the coach should have thought of that before he made an of himself.

Sorry, fairness says the coach is gone. Gone. Done. Kaput. Finished. Goodbye.
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Old Fri Jun 11, 2004, 09:51am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dakota
Quote:
Originally posted by chuck chopper
Totally disagree. If the Ump has the rule wrong..and the coach cannot convince him of it, and a few choice words ensue. I'm fine with the Ejection. But then to compound one error by making another is bad....I am just on the side of fairness.
Don't take this wrong, but actually you are on the side of making a mockery of an ejection.

The ejection has nothing to do with the call. It has to do with USC (bad behavior) on the part of the coach. Once the coach has been ejected, he may no longer participate in the game. That means, since he is a coach, he may no longer coach. That includes filing a protest.

Your fundamental assumption is that the umpire was wrong and therefore the ejection may result in an improper protest being filed and therefore may result in, as you say, another error.

Well, the coach should have thought of that before he made an of himself.

Sorry, fairness says the coach is gone. Gone. Done. Kaput. Finished. Goodbye.
Couldn't agree more! Being human, umpires make mistakes. It happens. However, that is not justification for a coach, player or anyone else to act like an idiot.

I cannot count how many times I've had to walk coaches or players through a request for an appeal or protest, but I will only do that if it is in a calm fashion. And before half of you jump on that, I'm not talking about "coaching" them through the process, just getting them to find the correct path to take.

For example, about eight years ago I had a slow pitch player/coach pop up to right field, turn to the side and as I was saying, "Don't do it", he threw his bat against the backstop.

Obviously, I tossed him. The coach started telling me how terrible I was, etc, etc. I ignored him and went to his assistant and told him he was now the manager and we needed to talk without the ejected player being involved, at all. They only had 10 players and I asked for a sub. They told me they would play shorthanded. I then informed them that the couldn't do that and failure to have a sub would create a forfeit. I'm not out there to declare a forfeit because of one idiot. Now, I know one of their rostered players was sitting in the stands with his leg in a brace.

This guy was having a nervous breakdown thinking it is all MY fault they were going to forfeit a game. After about the third time I repeated, "Do you have anyone here who is on your roster that can fill his place on the line-up card?" I could see the light go on. He called the injured player to the dugout and added him as a substitute. Because I don't want this kid to feel he was forced to go out and play and possibly reinjure himself, I then told the new manager that playing shorthanded is now an option.

BTW, I did this all within hearing range of the opposing manager who had no problem with it. At no point did I indicate I knew they had a player in the stands or even look that way. I just stood there in front of the dugout and asked the same question I would of any team in this situation. I just allowed him the time to gather his thoughts and run his options through his mind.

To this day, and I still see these guys, that team has no idea I helped them stay in that game even though I could have easily just walked away from the field with my money and never look back which is probably what I would have done if I were forced to deal with the idiot I ejected.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 11, 2004, 10:31am
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The Original Call, the possible protest and ejection are all mutually exclusive of one another.

First things first.........
Coach is gone...So sorry please have a safe drive home.

Once he is gone, then and only then will I listen to any possible protest from an assistant.

After the game I will contact my assigner/UIC and give them a heads up as to what happened. Then I will fill out whatever report needs to written. I'm sure I will sleep just fine.

If in the end, if the league no longer wants to use my services, then that is their choice. I will still sleep just fine.
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Old Fri Jun 11, 2004, 04:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by chuck chopper
Does not seem correct to say that you couldn't convince me I was wrong a minute ago, and now that I have ejected you, you know longer have a right to convince the league of it either thru the appropriate appeals proceedure.
Chuck, it is absolutly right that this coach no longer has any right to invoke a protest situation on the feild after he has been ejected. Even if he has a good case; it is no reason to act in such a way as to get tossed. I understand your desire for the rule (whatever it was) to be interpreted correctly but to allow that coach to stay on the feild and protest after getting tossed just becuase he might be right? Geez, in every argument that happens someone feels that the team member arguing with the Blue is correct.. so should we let them all stay regardless of behaviour just becuase they might be right? Nope.. out of sight, and out of sound once they cross that line, and we deal with nothing else until the offender is gone and a sub is reported.

But only that individual coach has lost the right to file a legal protest. Nobody is taking away the team's right to protest a misapplied rule.. but that is going to have to happen AFTER the offending coach departs.

If, after all the hullabaloo, the assistant is not up to speed or whatever on the situation or does not know how to properly go the the motions to do the protest on the feild and his/her team suffers for it; well; thems the breaks! Head coach should have kept his/her head!

Not fair? I think it is. The USC by the coach cost them the coach; the loss of the coach's knowlege/skill etc in coaching (i.e. recognizing a potential protestable situation and knowing how to go about protesting) is lost at the same time. No different from a star player getting tossed.. sure a sub can come in and play but the team is going to lose the starter's talent for the remainder of the game.

What it all comes down to is that players and coaches are required to conduct themselves properly on the feild ALL THE TIME. There seems to be this theory out there that if the player or coach thinks the official is wrong then all bets are off and it is ok to be a butthead about it. Sorry, not the way it works.

I probably come off sounding like a real hard *** Blue who puts a notch on his indicator everytime I run someone.. and really I am not. Most of the time I am probably, if anything, too freindly and good natured as a Blue. I appreciate what the coaches do for the game especially in youth ball. Without them, I don't have a game to call!

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Old Fri Jun 11, 2004, 04:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Quote:
Originally posted by Dakota
Quote:
Originally posted by chuck chopper
Totally disagree. If the Ump has the rule wrong..and the coach cannot convince him of it, and a few choice words ensue. I'm fine with the Ejection. But then to compound one error by making another is bad....I am just on the side of fairness.
Don't take this wrong, but actually you are on the side of making a mockery of an ejection.

The ejection has nothing to do with the call. It has to do with USC (bad behavior) on the part of the coach. Once the coach has been ejected, he may no longer participate in the game. That means, since he is a coach, he may no longer coach. That includes filing a protest.

Your fundamental assumption is that the umpire was wrong and therefore the ejection may result in an improper protest being filed and therefore may result in, as you say, another error.

Well, the coach should have thought of that before he made an of himself.

Sorry, fairness says the coach is gone. Gone. Done. Kaput. Finished. Goodbye.
Couldn't agree more! Being human, umpires make mistakes. It happens. However, that is not justification for a coach, player or anyone else to act like an idiot.

I cannot count how many times I've had to walk coaches or players through a request for an appeal or protest, but I will only do that if it is in a calm fashion. And before half of you jump on that, I'm not talking about "coaching" them through the process, just getting them to find the correct path to take.

For example, about eight years ago I had a slow pitch player/coach pop up to right field, turn to the side and as I was saying, "Don't do it", he threw his bat against the backstop.

Obviously, I tossed him. The coach started telling me how terrible I was, etc, etc. I ignored him and went to his assistant and told him he was now the manager and we needed to talk without the ejected player being involved, at all. They only had 10 players and I asked for a sub. They told me they would play shorthanded. I then informed them that the couldn't do that and failure to have a sub would create a forfeit. I'm not out there to declare a forfeit because of one idiot. Now, I know one of their rostered players was sitting in the stands with his leg in a brace.

This guy was having a nervous breakdown thinking it is all MY fault they were going to forfeit a game. After about the third time I repeated, "Do you have anyone here who is on your roster that can fill his place on the line-up card?" I could see the light go on. He called the injured player to the dugout and added him as a substitute. Because I don't want this kid to feel he was forced to go out and play and possibly reinjure himself, I then told the new manager that playing shorthanded is now an option.

BTW, I did this all within hearing range of the opposing manager who had no problem with it. At no point did I indicate I knew they had a player in the stands or even look that way. I just stood there in front of the dugout and asked the same question I would of any team in this situation. I just allowed him the time to gather his thoughts and run his options through his mind.

To this day, and I still see these guys, that team has no idea I helped them stay in that game even though I could have easily just walked away from the field with my money and never look back which is probably what I would have done if I were forced to deal with the idiot I ejected.
The gentlemanly thing to do. And all this time I figured you
would be a real AH in situations such as this...J/K
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Old Fri Jun 11, 2004, 05:10pm
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I'm with you Chuck. While I will not accept a protest from the ejected coach, I have no problem with the next in line "escorting" him out of the dugout insuring his timely departure and then coming to me and politely announcing his protest. I know darn well that the protest is from the ejected coach who has given up his rights but I see no reason to punish the team if I made a protestable call and their coach was an idiot. Besides, around these parts the park district takes a deposit on protests and since the ratio of protests failed to upheld is about 100-1 I see no reason to take that money out of the park's coffers.
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Old Tue Jun 15, 2004, 12:28pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChampaignBlue
I'm with you Chuck. While I will not accept a protest from the ejected coach, I have no problem with the next in line "escorting" him out of the dugout insuring his timely departure and then coming to me and politely announcing his protest.
Actually, I think you are more in line with the other posters in this thread. Letting the assistant, or interim head coach, make the protest.

Chuck seemed to actually be advocating letting the ejected head coach stay around to make sure that the protest is correctly made. This, of course, is an impossibility for all the reason the other posters have so eloquently stated.
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Old Tue Jun 15, 2004, 04:54pm
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From Chuck "We can call time out, let the assistant coach talk to the ejected coach as he walks to the car..then record the protest eventually. "

It was beginning to sound like the team had lost the right to protest because their coach was an idiot. I wanted to make it clear that no matter what went on beforehand if someone other than the ejected coach comes up to me and properly lodges a protest I'll let them. Call it positive reinforcement. It's shows them that I am interested in what is best for the game, 1st by tossing an unruley coach and then accepting critique, a polite description of a protest, from the polite coach and hopefully the deposit/donation is paid by the stupid coach that got tossed to add insult to injury.

[Edited by ChampaignBlue on Jun 15th, 2004 at 05:58 PM]
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Old Tue Jun 15, 2004, 08:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChampaignBlue
From Chuck "We can call time out, let the assistant coach talk to the ejected coach as he walks to the car..then record the protest eventually. "
Chuck goes on to say after that: "After that the league see's that the protest was not worded correctly and the reason being "we the ump" didn't want to hear it from "Ejected Ed.'"

In other words, let the ejected coach stick around to make sure the protest is worded correctly. Wrong, once he is ejected he is no longer a participant, therefore unable to do anything other than to tell the assistant taking his place what to do, and hope that all goes right. No one is arguing that the protest should not be allowed. I think everyone here agrees that it should, but that it is up to the assistant-now-head-coach to lodge the protest and see it through, since by his actions the original head coach admitted that he no longer wanted to be part of the game.

Quote:
It was beginning to sound like the team had lost the right to protest because their coach was an idiot. I wanted to make it clear that no matter what went on beforehand if someone other than the ejected coach comes up to me and properly lodges a protest I'll let them.
That's what the rest of us are saying. Hence my statement that you are more in line with the rest of the posters in this thread. I agree wholeheartedly with this last part of your statement.
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