DP / Flex and CR

[Dakota]

There was in interesting post on Troll Central that I thought I would paraphrase over here, with a couple of slight adjustments, since hardly anyone responds over there anymore.

ASA or NFHS rules.

The rules state that if the DP is batting for the pitcher or catcher, the DP is not allowed a CR if she gets on base.

The rules also state that, after the first half inning, the player who last played the pitcher or catcher position in the previous half inning is allowed a CR is she gets on base.

Situation: DP is batting for F1. DP goes in to play defense for F2. F2 remains in the game batting in her normal position, right after the DP in the order. Next half inning, DP comes to bat and gets on base. Coach wants to put in a CR for the DP. Do you allow it?

The starting F2 comes to bat next and gets on base. Coach wants to put in a CR for her. Do you allow it?

[Skahtboi]

I have poured through the NFHS and ASA rule books/case books and find no reference to this at all. So, with that in mind, I would say that if the DP had played catcher during the defensive half of the inning, then the CR should be allowed. That being said, the original catcher obviously didn't catch that defensive half, and therefore should not have a CR allowed. All of this, of course, is conjecture.

[Steve M]

I don't think it matters where the DP is defensively, since the DP is batting for F1, no CR allowed.

This citing - "The rules also state that, after the first half inning, the player who last played the pitcher or catcher position in the previous half inning is allowed a CR is she gets on base." - is only there to identify who is the pitcher and/or who is the catcher. Regardless of where the DP is defensively, that's still the DP.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA.

I'm sorry, but the DP bats for no one. The DP bats in the position the DP was listed at the beginning of the game.

If the batter (ANY BATTER) in question occupied the defensive position of F1 or F2 when their team recorded the final out in the previous half inning, they have met the qualifications of being replaced on the bases during that half inning by a courtesy runner (different one for each position) as long as that player reached base on their own accord.

Obviously, this would not apply in the top half of the 1st inning as the DP cannot be listed as F1 or F2.

However, if the FLEX is F1 or F2, it is possible that the Flex could bat for the DP in the top of the 1st and be eligible for a CR. However, if the DP re-entered after the Flex reached base, that player is NOT eligible for a CR.

I do believe it is the same for NFHS.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Feb 4th, 2004 at 06:23 PM]

[Dakota]

Mike & Scott, I agree with your ruling. The rule preventing the DP from having a CR means the DP does not inherit this right from the Flex when the Flex is F1 or F2. However, it does not mean the DP cannot earn that right on her own by actually playing the F1 or F2 position.

Even though the rule book doesn't explicitly say this, it is consistent with what I read the intent of the rule to be, and is how I would rule.

Steve, I agree ASA rule 8-10E is written in absolute terms, but so is 8-10A & B, so I'd resolve the apparent conflict by ruling based on what the intent seems to be (barring an official ruling to the contrary from ASA or NFHS).

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Speaking ASA.

I'm sorry, but the DP bats for no one.

Ahem...

ASA (2003 - don't have 2004 yet) Rule 4-3F

The person being batted for (DEFO) ...

Rule 8-10E

The courtesy runner is not permitted to run as a courtesy runner for the Designated Player (DP), if the DP is batting for the pitcher or the catcher.

Technically, you're correct, but the Rule Book does use that language.

[FUBLUE]

I agree. If DP has defensively played F1 or F2 (in the prior inning), we should allow the Courtesy Runner. Some coaches like to try to fool umpires on this rule...happened some in Indiana last year since we "experimented" with the rule. I know one coach who convinced a plate umpire twice that the DP gets a courtesey runner when batting for F1 or F2.

Here's how he did it. DP gets a hit. Let's just say that DP isn't "fleet of foot" and has to smack the wall with the ball to make it to first base. He then puts F1 (whom DP is batting for) in for DP (a substitution?). One pitch is thrown. Coach calls time, goes to umpire and says, "I'd like a courtesy runner for my pitcher." He agrees. Partner said nothing about it to the plate umpire (I was spectating). Coach does it again in the game.

Other coach is oblivious to the whole situation, doesn't say a word. See's me later in the season (non-softball related) and asks if it was legal. Said no it's not. He said he thought so but didn't want to complain about it.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by FUBLUE
DP gets a hit. Let's just say that DP isn't "fleet of foot" and has to smack the wall with the ball to make it to first base. He then puts F1 (whom DP is batting for) in for DP (a substitution?).

What I call a "half substitution." DP has left the game, but Flex's status is unaffected (i.e. it is not a reentry since she was already in the game). Lineup goes from 10 to 9.

Originally posted by FUBLUE
One pitch is thrown. Coach calls time, goes to umpire and says, "I'd like a courtesy runner for my pitcher." He agrees. Partner said nothing about it to the plate umpire (I was spectating).

Should not have been allowed.

Originally posted by FUBLUE
Coach does it again in the game.

At this point, the starting DP is done for the game. She has used her re-entry to bat again, and she has left the game again. She sits out the remainder. And, like the first time, the CR should not have been allowed.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

Even though the rule book doesn't explicitly say this, it is consistent with what I read the intent of the rule to be, and is how I would rule.

But the rule book does explicitly state who is permitted a CR. If the runner does not meet the quals, they don't get a CR. The misunderstandings are caused when folks insist on forcing their own logic which often includes intermixing offensive and defensive positioning into the equation.

Steve, I agree ASA rule 8-10E is written in absolute terms, but so is 8-10A & B, so I'd resolve the apparent conflict by ruling based on what the intent seems to be (barring an official ruling to the contrary from ASA or NFHS).

Yes, in absolute defensive positioning terms.

Ahem...

ASA (2003 - don't have 2004 yet) Rule 4-3F The person being batted for (DEFO) ...Rule 8-10E The courtesy runner is not permitted to run as a courtesy runner for the Designated Player (DP), if the DP is batting for the pitcher or the catcher.

Yep, you caught me not qualifying my statement by commenting that the DP doesn't bat for anyone other than the designated FLEX player in the 10-slot on the line up card.

[CecilOne]

The CR is allowwed for whoever played the F1 or F2 position in the previous half-inning as long as that player became a base runner on their own and not as a pinch runner. The same would apply to a Flex listed as F1 or F2 if they batted for the DP in the first inning and became a base runner on their own. The original rule was clarified about the CR being for the player who played the position and became a base runner on their own. I don't see why there is any problem with interpretation or why the above deceptions are not obvious.


As long as CR rules came up, remember the CR is running for the position and not the player.
For example, #10 is pitching, #15 is catching and #33 is used as a CR for the catcher.
If #20 replaces #15 as catcher, #33 can still be the CR for #15 as catcher; but not #15 if playing another position.
Even if #10 and #15 swap positions, #33 can still be CR for #10 as catcher, but not for #15 as pitcher or any other position.

[IRISHMAFIA]

[Roger Greene]

You might want to check out Situation 18 of the 2004 Fed Softball Rules Interpertations.

http://www.nfhs.org/sports/softball interp.htm

It makes it clear that the catcher of record is the player who caught the last pitch of the previous half inning and is allowed a CR. (The same logic must be applied to the pitcher.)

Roger Greene

[FUBLUE]

Tom,

Nice "half-substitution" description. I like the concept. It is like a sub, but not like a sub. I'm going to borrow this analogy to explain it to a bunch of new guys.

[Duke]

I want to make sure I understand this.
Say the count is 0-2 with 2 outs. The coach calls time and wants the put the DP in on defense in F2 position.
The next pitch is a strike for the third out. The DP is the first batter up and gets on base. Can a CR be used for the DP seeing that she was the last player to physically play the F2 position in the previous inning?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Duke
I want to make sure I understand this.
Say the count is 0-2 with 2 outs. The coach calls time and wants the put the DP in on defense in F2 position.
The next pitch is a strike for the third out. The DP is the first batter up and gets on base. Can a CR be used for the DP seeing that she was the last player to physically play the F2 position in the previous inning?

Yes. Remember, the objective of the CR rule is to speed up the game - to allow F2 to get her gear back on. Even though some coaches will use it for base-running speed - and that's OK - the assumption is the DP will return as F2. There is no requirement that she actually DOES return as F2, though.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
You might want to check out Situation 18 of the 2004 Fed Softball Rules Interpertations.

http://www.nfhs.org/sports/softball interp.htm

It makes it clear that the catcher of record is the player who caught the last pitch of the previous half inning and is allowed a CR. (The same logic must be applied to the pitcher.)

Roger Greene

To expand on this a little.

1. not who caught the last pitch, but who was in the position of catcher when the last pitch was thrown, e.g. change of catcher with two outs, last batter pops up so the new catcher never actually caught a pitch. (I think this is what you meant but I wanted to specify.)

2. "Adams" (DP) batting fourth and "Washington" (F2) batting fifth. In the bottom of the first inning "Harrison" is CR for "Washington". In the top of the third, "Adams" plays defense for "Washington". In the bottom of the third, "Harrison" is CR for the "Adams." All legal.