kicked ball to DBT

[AtlUmpSteve]

So why do you think any other rules sets are different? The cited one base award rule, and specifically the highlighted rule, also only reflect a ball that has been controlled/possessed, and subsequently lost without intent.

[chapmaja]

I don't see anything that indicates this is a one base award in the USSSA rulebook.

What I do find interesting is when does the ball change from a deflected ball to a basically being considered a thrown ball that goes out of play?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

i don't see anything that indicates this is a one base award in the usssa rulebook.

8-14-d

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

8-14-d

8-14-d would appear to be the most applicable rule, HOWEVER, how do you explain that under 8-14-d=3, the R1, who was on second base, does not advance a base because she is not forced to advance.

8-14-d-3 If forced from the base occupied by a following runner who must advance because a batter receives a fourth ball, is hit by a pitched ball
or hits a fair ball which becomes dead.

Looking farther, it appears as this would be a 1 base award from the pitch, as 8-15-A-1 states the award shall be from the time of the pitch:

"If any pitch (batted or unbatted) is followed by a dead ball before the
pitcher is in the 16-foot circle for the next pitch and before there is
any throw by the fielding team."

Kicking the ball out of play is not a throw by the defensive team.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

8-14-d would appear to be the most applicable rule, HOWEVER, how do you explain that under 8-14-d=3, the R1, who was on second base, does not advance a base because she is not forced to advance.

8-14-d-3 If forced from the base occupied by a following runner who must advance because a batter receives a fourth ball, is hit by a pitched ball
or hits a fair ball which becomes dead.

Looking farther, it appears as this would be a 1 base award from the pitch, as 8-15-A-1 states the award shall be from the time of the pitch:

"If any pitch (batted or unbatted) is followed by a dead ball before the
pitcher is in the 16-foot circle for the next pitch and before there is
any throw by the fielding team."

Kicking the ball out of play is not a throw by the defensive team.

The specifics are different.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The specifics are different.

Are they? Given that nothing else in the USSSA rules seems to apply this rule does seem to the be best rule for the situation, as it was a batted ball which was fair and become dead.

(I'm not saying this is the way it should be ruled, just saying the way the rules are written this does appear to be the most applicable rule when nothing is specific in the rules about the situation. As stated above, this should be considered a deflected batted ball going out of play, a thrown ball going out of play which should be a two base award, not a 1 base award).

The complicating factors are that the ball was never possessed or thrown by the defense. This is something not covered in the USSSA rules, but is covered in every other code as far as I can tell.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I don't see anything that indicates this is a one base award in the USSSA rulebook.

That's exactly why I posted the 1-base awards - it's not included there.

My point on the ball going to DBT when a fielder loses control on a tag play is that I think that may be the point of confusion.

[Manny A]

I still feel this should be treated as a deflected batted ball that goes into DBT. The fielder never possessed it, it was still considered a batted ball since he/she never had it in his/her possession, and he/she unintentionally deflected it.

Unless there's a specific case play saying that when a defensive player provides additional impetus to a ball that causes it to go into DBT where it otherwise would not have, treat it as a "thrown" ball, then we can't just make up that ruling.

This is the NCAA case play I mentioned above.

A.R. 9-40. A pitched ball is rolling on the ground as the catcher, while trying to retrieve it, accidently [sic] kicks the ball into dugout. Is it still a pitch with only a one base award? Does it matter if the pitch is no longer is moving when there’s contact with the catcher?
RULING: It is considered a pitch until it becomes a batted ball or is thrown by the catcher. The award to base runners would be one base and it does not matter if the ball, at the time of the contact with the catcher, was moving or stationary.
(Rule 9.11)

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I still feel this should be treated as a deflected batted ball that goes into DBT. The fielder never possessed it, it was still considered a batted ball since he/she never had it in his/her possession, and he/she unintentionally deflected it.

Unless there's a specific case play saying that when a defensive player provides additional impetus to a ball that causes it to go into DBT where it otherwise would not have, treat it as a "thrown" ball, then we can't just make up that ruling.

This is the NCAA case play I mentioned above.

I was going to post something on this as well, but wasn't sure on the fact when she went to pick it up it was kicked out of play. That second impetus is what makes it a challenging play.

[josephrt1]

Manny, The same scenario you post from NCAA was on the 2016 USA/ASA Softball exam and the correct answer was that it was 1 base because it had not been possessed after the pitch. So I agree with you (Manny) on the ball to the outfield, it should still be considered a deflected batted ball. Ruling that a kick of a batted ball is treated like a thrown ball is inconsistent with this 2016 test question.

With no outs and R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and B3 at bat, F1 throws a wild pitch that gets away from F2 and stops a few feet from
the dugout entrance. As F2 is going to retrieve the ball she accidentally kicks the ball sending it into dead ball territory
inside the dugout.
a. Umpire should let play continue allowing F2 to retrieve the ball and attempt to make a play on the runners.
b. Umpire signals and verbalizes “Dead ball” and awards both runners home since the ball was kicked into dead ball
territory making it a two base award.
c. Umpire signals and verbalizes “Dead ball” and sends both runners back to the base they legally occupied at the time of
the pitch.
(d.) Umpire signals and verbalizes “Dead ball” and awards R1 home and R2 3B since the ball is still considered to be a
pitched ball.

[Tru_in_Blu]

A pitched ball vs a batted ball is the differentiating aspect. "Possession" really doesn't factor in.

What happens when F5 dives to the right to try an catch a line drive which deflects off the glove over fair territory and then goes into DBT? Two base award.

What happens when a batted ball that lands fair down a foul line and then rolls beyond a temporary fence that stopped at the foul line? Two base award.

What happens when a batted ball hits the outfield fence on the fly, bounces back off the chest of the fielder and then bounces over the fence. Two base award.

What happens when an outfielder dives after a base hit down a line in an attempt to not let it get by, but the ball deflects off the glove into DBT? Two base award.

What happens when an outfielder dives feet first after a base hit down a line in an attempt to not let it get by, but the ball deflects off the foot, shin, knee, or head into DBT? Two base award.

None of the above include possession. All of the above are a two base award.

[Tru_in_Blu]

We did go through this a while ago.

This post began on a different subject, i.e. USSSA award for a kicked ball to DBT and then went on a bit of a tangent.

Here's the past post: https://forum.officiating.com/softba...ll-status.html