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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 09:26am
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Ball status

I got to thinking about ball status as a result of one of the questions on this year's ASA Umpire Exam.

I'm wondering about when a batted ball is no longer considered a batted ball, or a pitched ball is no longer considered a pitched ball.

Examples to help clarify:

Many fields with a temporary fence may have a gap between the chain link fence and the start of the temporary fence. If a batter hits a fair line drive down a foul line and the fielder dives for it but it deflects off their glove and through that gap in the fence, I believe the 2 base award for runners and BR would be from the TOP. But say it was a pop fly that landed fair, is overrun by the fielder and when the fielder goes back to retrieve the now motionless ball, s/he inadvertently kicks it into DBT. Would that be 2 bases based on the position of the runners at the "time of throw", or in this case, kick?

Likewise, on a pitched ball. A pitch that immediately goes out of play (over the backstop or through a hole in the backstop is a 1 base award from TOP. Same for a deflected ball off the umpire or F2 that goes out of play. But if the ball has stopped rolling after bouncing off F2 and a defensive player while hustling to retrieve the ball kicks or otherwise knocks the ball into DBT, would that be a 2 base award from where runners were positioned at the time of that new impetus?

Thanx.
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Old Fri Jan 08, 2016, 09:38am
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ASA has a case play regarding a ball that is kicked into dead ball territory. The result of the case play is essentially when the defensive player provides the impetus that forces the ball into dead ball territory, it is treated exactly the same as a thrown ball. The award is 2 bases from the time of the force applied to the ball by the defense.
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Old Sun Jan 10, 2016, 11:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
ASA has a case play regarding a ball that is kicked into dead ball territory. The result of the case play is essentially when the defensive player provides the impetus that forces the ball into dead ball territory, it is treated exactly the same as a thrown ball. The award is 2 bases from the time of the force applied to the ball by the defense.
I recall seeing that somewhere. I think it had more to do with a batted ball. Do you know the year of the case play, or better yet, the rule(s) it would reference?

Any specifics on the pitched ball scenario?
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Old Sun Jan 10, 2016, 11:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
I recall seeing that somewhere. I think it had more to do with a batted ball.
I believe it has more to do with a live ball as opposed to a batted or thrown ball as the causation of the ball becoming dead has nothing to do with the ball being batted, thrown or pitched.

Could the interpretation be clearer? Yes, but as is routinely demonstrated on these types of boards, folks don't always accept general statements or interpretations well.
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Old Sun Jan 10, 2016, 12:46pm
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It was actually a clarification, not a case play. July 2009 clarifications.

Play 2: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded? RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7ís foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

Yes, the clarification is based on a batted ball, but it states the ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated exactly the same as if the ball had been thrown into dead ball territory. As I said on a similar post on another board to the same question, if F2 had picked up the ball and thrown it into the dugout what would the base award be?
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:11am
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I'm still researching...

I found a case play from 2007. It reads:

PLAY 8.6-22
(FP and SP with stealing) With R1 on 1B, F2 drops the pitch and the plate umpire, in an effort to get out of the way, accidentally kicks the ball into the dugout.
RULING: R1 is awarded 1 base from the base held at the time of the pitch. This is treated the same as a wild pitch. (8-5C)

Section C specifically refers to: "a pitched ball that remains live becomes blocked or goes out of live ball territory."

Section G talks to "when the ball is live and is overthrown or is blocked".

So "C" would give the defense a break anytime there are multiple runners on a pitch that gets away, they could just kick it out of play to limit further advance by base runners.

I don't like it. I'd prefer the 2-base award if the defense knocked the ball out of play either accidentally or intentionally.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 11:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
I'm still researching...

I found a case play from 2007. It reads:

PLAY 8.6-22
(FP and SP with stealing) With R1 on 1B, F2 drops the pitch and the plate umpire, in an effort to get out of the way, accidentally kicks the ball into the dugout.
RULING: R1 is awarded 1 base from the base held at the time of the pitch. This is treated the same as a wild pitch. (8-5C)

Section C specifically refers to: "a pitched ball that remains live becomes blocked or goes out of live ball territory."

Section G talks to "when the ball is live and is overthrown or is blocked".

So "C" would give the defense a break anytime there are multiple runners on a pitch that gets away, they could just kick it out of play to limit further advance by base runners.

I don't like it. I'd prefer the 2-base award if the defense knocked the ball out of play either accidentally or intentionally.
There is a difference between an umpire kicking the ball and a player. We are part of the field, an umpire kick or a ricochet off an umpire is the same as a bounce off the dirt or the fence, etc. A kick by a player is a ball propelled by a player and so is a throw or muff or slap, etc.
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Last edited by CecilOne; Thu Jan 28, 2016 at 11:56am.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 11:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
I'm still researching...

I found a case play from 2007. It reads:

PLAY 8.6-22
(FP and SP with stealing) With R1 on 1B, F2 drops the pitch and the plate umpire, in an effort to get out of the way, accidentally kicks the ball into the dugout.
RULING: R1 is awarded 1 base from the base held at the time of the pitch. This is treated the same as a wild pitch. (8-5C)

Section C specifically refers to: "a pitched ball that remains live becomes blocked or goes out of live ball territory."

Section G talks to "when the ball is live and is overthrown or is blocked".

So "C" would give the defense a break anytime there are multiple runners on a pitch that gets away, they could just kick it out of play to limit further advance by base runners.

I don't like it. I'd prefer the 2-base award if the defense knocked the ball out of play either accidentally or intentionally.
We got some local direction on this play that a pitch was still a pitch until a play was made (such as the catcher picking it up to throw it to the pitcher). I've reached out to our local UIC to get clarity on this play.

I'd also note that the July 2009 clarification is somewhat problematic because it makes section K meaningless. That's the rule for when a ball is kicked or pushed intentionally out of play. But if we treat an accidental kick like a throw then we are treating it like an intentional kick and the whole thing seems rather a convoluted mess.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 02:54pm
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Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
There is a difference between an umpire kicking the ball and a player.
Well, the player no doubt deserved it.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 05:34pm
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Don't we treat any kick, intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to enter DBT the same way we treat any throw (besides a pitch), intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to leave DBT?
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 05:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Well, the player no doubt deserved it.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 05:58pm
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Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Don't we treat any kick, intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to enter DBT the same way we treat any throw (besides a pitch), intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to leave DBT?
Yes, if I read yours correctly.

Tru and I are on a case about an umpire kicking the ball (post #6); not the same as a player "propelling" the ball; but same effect.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 09:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Don't we treat any kick, intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to enter DBT the same way we treat any throw (besides a pitch), intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to leave DBT?
That seems to be the point of the rule clarification. But if you take that point, then what is the point of the word intentionally in 8-5-K. And then our local direction here is that a pitched ball at rest unintentionally kicked out of play is one base time of pitch.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
I believe it has more to do with a live ball as opposed to a batted or thrown ball as the causation of the ball becoming dead has nothing to do with the ball being batted, thrown or pitched.

Could the interpretation be clearer? Yes, but as is routinely demonstrated on these types of boards, folks don't always accept general statements or interpretations well.
I guess I'm one of those guilty ones.

Back to my original post, I think I've now learned that a pitched ball remains a pitched ball until it has been picked up by the defense. And, that a pitched ball that is moving or has come to rest that is kicked to DBT by either a defensive player or the PU would result in a 1-base award from TOP. And while still considered a live ball (prior to going to DBT) it does not warrant a 2-base award.

There's some good questions on this year's exam. (And one obviously egregiously wrong answer.)
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2016, 05:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
That seems to be the point of the rule clarification. But if you take that point, then what is the point of the word intentionally in 8-5-K. And then our local direction here is that a pitched ball at rest unintentionally kicked out of play is one base time of pitch.
Then this would stink...

Runner on first, stealing with the pitch. Pitch bounces off the catcher and rolls over by the dugout. As catcher chases ball, runner rounds second and heads for third.

If I'm the catcher I'm going to use my best acting skills to "accidentally" kick the ball into the dugout when I try to retrieve it. Doing so puts the runner back on second base, instead of at third base.

I've always thought that this would be a two-base award, from the time of the "kick". But I can see how the case play might not be too clear about that.
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