The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 03:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcannizzo View Post
I'm not so sure it was handled correctly by the umpires.

I would love to know what the umpires discussed.
BU: Did I miss the call? (Not the question to ask)
PU: Yes, you did. (Not the appropriate response to the question)
Call is reversed (Wrong result)

If BU is in "A" (albeit in the wrong position), it would seem to me that he had all four elements of the play in front of him. That would make this a "Judgement Call", and would preclude him from asking for and getting "help".

Yes, a pulled foot is a legitimate appeal, but that is usually reserved for the calling umpire being, blocked, straight-lined, etc. and usually with BU in "C".
I wonder if there really was a valid appeal in this sitch.

If the conversation did go that way, the result should have been "Eat the bad call and survive the shit storm".
Nothing precludes asking for help. One can if one wishes.

In this replay age getting it right wins.
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 06:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcannizzo View Post
If BU is in "A" (albeit in the wrong position), it would seem to me that he had all four elements of the play in front of him. That would make this a "Judgement Call", and would preclude him from asking for and getting "help".
And yet, the OPer said that F3 DID indeed pull her foot early.

I don't agree that this would "preclude him from asking for help".

So ultimately, and by whatever means they used, the umpires did end up getting the call at first base right.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 07:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
Would you be asking if it was the second inning?
Yes, why? What inning was it and why would that matter?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 07:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcannizzo View Post
I'm not so sure it was handled correctly by the umpires.

I would love to know what the umpires discussed.
BU: Did I miss the call? (Not the question to ask)
PU: Yes, you did. (Not the appropriate response to the question)
Call is reversed (Wrong result)

If BU is in "A" (albeit in the wrong position), it would seem to me that he had all four elements of the play in front of him. That would make this a "Judgement Call", and would preclude him from asking for and getting "help".

Yes, a pulled foot is a legitimate appeal, but that is usually reserved for the calling umpire being, blocked, straight-lined, etc. and usually with BU in "C".
I wonder if there really was a valid appeal in this sitch.

If the conversation did go that way, the result should have been "Eat the bad call and survive the shit storm".
Why do you say no help on judgment calls?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 07:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
Nothing precludes asking for help. One can if one wishes.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
In this replay age getting it right wins.
That was true before the "replay age".
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 10, 2018, 06:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Why do you say no help on judgment calls?
Maybe I don't understand this question.

Assuming I do, let's use an extreme well-known example.
Jim Joyce, MLB Umpire who kicked a call that cost a pitcher a perfect game.

He knew he kicked the call.
His partners knew he kicked the call.

My question to you is, why didn't they get together and get it right?
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 11, 2018, 06:03am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,297
Because the rules say you do not give input on another officials call unless specifically asked by the calling official. He had the ability to go ask his partners himself if he was missing something but by rule his partners cannot go to him and try to get him to overturn his call.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 11, 2018, 11:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcannizzo View Post
Maybe I don't understand this question.

Assuming I do, let's use an extreme well-known example.
Jim Joyce, MLB Umpire who kicked a call that cost a pitcher a perfect game.

He knew he kicked the call.
His partners knew he kicked the call.

My question to you is, why didn't they get together and get it right?
He did not realize it until after seeing a replay in the locker room after the game. Up until that point in time, he believed he had it right. And, IMO, it wasn't as obvious as you make it sound. Any other game this probably wouldn't even have blip on anyone's radar, but this game was magnified by the situation.

If you can find the replay from the CF camera, you can see that the pitcher did not close the glove around the ball right of way. I can see what may have given Joyce a problem, but he didn't mention it in his interview.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 11, 2018, 06:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Metro Atlanta
Posts: 856
OK, I'm not going down the Jim Joyce rabbit hole.
And maybe I have an 0-2 count on the message board.
One more swing, then that's it.

It has always been my understanding that judgement calls should never be reversed (no matter how bad the call may have been); it is a matter of game integrity.

Specifically:
a.) If the calling umpire has all four of the elements in front of him/her, then it is a judgement call; and not legitimate grounds for asking for, or giving, help.
b.) Going for help (with or without an appeal) is reserved for those circumstances when the calling umpire did not have all four elements of the play in front of him/her.

Simply put, "help" is the opportunity to provide additional information that was not available to the calling umpire, not just another opinion on the same set of facts.

I will also say this. We have some rec leagues where a regular umpire will have a youth umpire partner with no formal training. It is clearly understood, that whatever call the youth umpire makes, the call will not be changed by the regular umpire, even if the coaches request.

If this is not the case, I will go back to my assignors, trainers, clinicians and mentors and tell them I got it wrong.
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 11, 2018, 09:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcannizzo View Post
It has always been my understanding that judgement calls should never be reversed (no matter how bad the call may have been); it is a matter of game integrity.

Specifically:
a.) If the calling umpire has all four of the elements in front of him/her, then it is a judgement call; and not legitimate grounds for asking for, or giving, help.
b.) Going for help (with or without an appeal) is reserved for those circumstances when the calling umpire did not have all four elements of the play in front of him/her.
I was working a women's slow pitch game with a partner who was on the bases. At one point during the game, he zoned out and made an egregiously bad call at first base. About the time he made the call, he must have popped back into reality because he immediately called time out (usually the plate umpire's duty). He came in and said to me, "I just blew that call and need some help." I just nodded and said something like "OK, make it right."

He reversed the call, everyone was happy, and we continued the game.

He had all 4 elements in front of him, but because he dozed off for a play, made a bad judgment call. The good news was that he realized it and we were able to fix it.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
reversed call Six_DanO Softball 5 Sat May 19, 2018 12:59pm
LSU/ASU Interference Call Reversed UmpireErnie Softball 4 Mon May 18, 2015 02:15pm
Obstruction call reversed (SD@ARI) teebob21 Baseball 3 Mon May 11, 2015 02:57pm
Reversed call on catch just another ref Baseball 2 Mon Jul 16, 2012 08:09am
Call reversed Jay R Baseball 10 Sat Jun 07, 2003 06:54pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:19pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1