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Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 02:35pm
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Reversed call at 1st with 2 outs

ISA rules. Two outs. Ball hit to infield. Easy out at 1st. 1st baseman got excited and pulled her foot off the base early. Not completely obvious, but she did pull her foot. Field umpire (who was in position right behind the bag at 1st) called the runner out. Defense celebrated and rushed off the field (with me encouraging them because I saw her pull her foot, lol). Offensive coach walked on the field and complained. FU appealed to the PU who overturned the call and advanced the runners one base each and put the defense back on the field. I donít disagree with the call, but just wanted to confirm it was handled properly for my own education.
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Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 02:45pm
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I think it was handled correctly from the perspective that the umpires got together to compare notes. Just to clarify, it shouldn't be that the PU "overturned" the BU's call. The PU provided additional information to the calling umpire who then decided to change his original call. (That's how it should work.) Bringing the defense back out was fine.

I don't get the advance of the runners 1 base each. Curious as to the logic of that ruling.
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Last edited by Tru_in_Blu; Sat Sep 08, 2018 at 02:47pm.
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Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 02:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaincoach View Post
ISA rules. Two outs. Ball hit to infield. Easy out at 1st. 1st baseman got excited and pulled her foot off the base early. Not completely obvious, but she did pull her foot. Field umpire (who was in position right behind the bag at 1st) called the runner out. Defense celebrated and rushed off the field (with me encouraging them because I saw her pull her foot, lol). Offensive coach walked on the field and complained. FU appealed to the PU who overturned the call and advanced the runners one base each and put the defense back on the field. I don’t disagree with the call, but just wanted to confirm it was handled properly for my own education.
If applying "umpire jeopardy", and the one base each was the judgment of where they would have reached w/o the wrong call; ok.

For umpires, " the FU discussed/ questioned the PU about the call and the FU changed the call"
Better than saying "appeal" and one umpire can not "overturn" another's call.
(Except on Little League replays , maybe others).


I didn't know the "International Society of Arboriculture" had a softball division.
Just kidding MC, but what is ISA?
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Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 02:51pm
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Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
I didn't know the "International Society of Arboriculture" had a softball division.
Just kidding MC, but what is ISA?
Well, the "i" IS close to the "u" on the keyboard...
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Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 06:54pm
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Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
If applying "umpire jeopardy", and the one base each was the judgment of where they would have reached w/o the wrong call; ok.

For umpires, " the FU discussed/ questioned the PU about the call and the FU changed the call"
Better than saying "appeal" and one umpire can not "overturn" another's call.
(Except on Little League replays , maybe others).


I didn't know the "International Society of Arboriculture" had a softball division.
Just kidding MC, but what is ISA?
Did the base umpire cuss out the plate umpire, or did the assigner hate the umpire so much that he gave him the "FU" initials?
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Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 08:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post

I don't get the advance of the runners 1 base each. Curious as to the logic of that ruling.
Because that's where they would be if the original call was safe.
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Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 08:35pm
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Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
Because that's where they would be if the original call was safe.
That's not how I understood it, Rich.

"PU (who) overturned the call and advanced the runners one base each..."

If the original call was safe, the BR would have ended up on first base. So advancing the BR anywhere beyond first base doesn't sound right.

Perhaps we're just interpreting things differently. The OP didn't mention other runners until later. But putting them 1 base from where they started might be OK.

Where do you have the BR ending up?

And if BU was behind first base, that could indicate that it was a 2-ump system with 1 runner on first base at the time. (And BU should have been closer to second base.) Otherwise, it would indicate that there were no runners on, or the BU was clueless.
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Last edited by Tru_in_Blu; Sat Sep 08, 2018 at 08:41pm. Reason: addition
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Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 09:00pm
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I read it as the reversal of the call on the BR forced other runners up a base where appropriate. If that wasn't the case, I agree with your questioning of the award.
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Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 07:53am
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Thanks guys! I've had a good laugh too. ISA stands for Independent Sports Association. I think they're primarily based in the Southeast. To clarify, the umpires only advanced the runners on 2nd and 3rd. The batter was left at 1st. He said it was a judgement call. I agree they both were in the process of advancing during the play (with 2 outs), but oh well. The first baseman heard the "out" call and started toward the dugout (leaving us to predict whether or not the runner on 3rd would have scored if the 1st baseman had thrown the ball home). The thing that really bothered me was the fact the offensive coach was the reason the field umpire asked for help from the plate umpire even though it was his call and he was in the best position to make the call. In the game prior, I asked for basically the same thing after 2 badly missed calls at home plate, and I was told no.

EDIT--I just realized your confusion about the base runners. I failed terribly to mention the runners on 2nd and 3rd before the play began. 1st was unoccupied. Sorry.

Last edited by Mountaincoach; Sun Sep 09, 2018 at 07:57am.
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Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 09:35am
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Originally Posted by Mountaincoach View Post
Thanks guys! I've had a good laugh too. ISA stands for Independent Sports Association. I think they're primarily based in the Southeast. To clarify, the umpires only advanced the runners on 2nd and 3rd. The batter was left at 1st. He said it was a judgement call. I agree they both were in the process of advancing during the play (with 2 outs), but oh well. The first baseman heard the "out" call and started toward the dugout (leaving us to predict whether or not the runner on 3rd would have scored if the 1st baseman had thrown the ball home). The thing that really bothered me was the fact the offensive coach was the reason the field umpire asked for help from the plate umpire even though it was his call and he was in the best position to make the call. In the game prior, I asked for basically the same thing after 2 badly missed calls at home plate, and I was told no.

EDIT--I just realized your confusion about the base runners. I failed terribly to mention the runners on 2nd and 3rd before the play began. 1st was unoccupied. Sorry.
I know nothing about ISA or their mechanics or umpiring positioning. In the 2 sanctions that I work, the BU should have been in what we refer to as the "C" position - behind and off the right shoulder of the short-stop. This assumes a fast pitch game. But even if it was a slow pitch game, the BU should not have been positioned behind first base.

Again, based on USA or NFHS, I think moving the runners from second and third up one base was the correct call. This would be similar to the result if F3 had just dropped the ball at first. Each runner probably would have advanced 1 base and BR safe at first.

The offense's coach was well within his rights to ask the BU to check with his partner. The BU did not have to check, but most umpires will acknowledge the request if made respectfully.

I had a banger in a game last week, third out of the inning. The offense's coach came out to ask me about the call and if I'd check with my partner. He stated that he thought F3 pulled his foot and that he thought the runner beat the throw anyway. I said the judgment of beating the throw would stand but that I would check with my partner on the pulled foot request. Partner said there was no pulled foot, so the call stood.
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Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 09:53am
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Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
That's not how I understood it, Rich.

"PU (who) overturned the call and advanced the runners one base each..."

If the original call was safe, the BR would have ended up on first base. So advancing the BR anywhere beyond first base doesn't sound right.

Perhaps we're just interpreting things differently. The OP didn't mention other runners until later. But putting them 1 base from where they started might be OK.

Where do you have the BR ending up?

And if BU was behind first base, that could indicate that it was a 2-ump system with 1 runner on first base at the time. (And BU should have been closer to second base.) Otherwise, it would indicate that there were no runners on, or the BU was clueless.
The B/R is at first. Everyone else advances, forced or not, because that's where they would be with a safe call.
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Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 10:56am
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
I read it as the reversal of the call on the BR forced other runners up a base where appropriate. If that wasn't the case, I agree with your questioning of the award.
I was going with an "umpire jeopardy" situation being resolved with the umpires judging the result if the call was originally correct.
In this OP, judgment of whether the runners would have advanced even if the call was safe.
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Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 10:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaincoach View Post
ISA rules. Two outs. Ball hit to infield. Easy out at 1st. 1st baseman got excited and pulled her foot off the base early. Not completely obvious, but she did pull her foot. Field umpire (who was in position right behind the bag at 1st) called the runner out. Defense celebrated and rushed off the field (with me encouraging them because I saw her pull her foot, lol). Offensive coach walked on the field and complained. FU appealed to the PU who overturned the call and advanced the runners one base each and put the defense back on the field. I donít disagree with the call, but just wanted to confirm it was handled properly for my own education.
On second thought, was it too late for an "umpire jeopardy" rectification?
"Defense celebrated and rushed off the field "
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Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 11:29am
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Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
On second thought, was it too late for an "umpire jeopardy" rectification?
"Defense celebrated and rushed off the field "
Would you be asking if it was the second inning?
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Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 02:59pm
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I'm not so sure it was handled correctly by the umpires.

I would love to know what the umpires discussed.
BU: Did I miss the call? (Not the question to ask)
PU: Yes, you did. (Not the appropriate response to the question)
Call is reversed (Wrong result)

If BU is in "A" (albeit in the wrong position), it would seem to me that he had all four elements of the play in front of him. That would make this a "Judgement Call", and would preclude him from asking for and getting "help".

Yes, a pulled foot is a legitimate appeal, but that is usually reserved for the calling umpire being, blocked, straight-lined, etc. and usually with BU in "C".
I wonder if there really was a valid appeal in this sitch.

If the conversation did go that way, the result should have been "Eat the bad call and survive the shit storm".
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