Runner fails to tag - dead ball is called....???

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

Odd situation last night. Mens slowpitch.

Runners on FIRST and THIRD, 0 Outs.

Liner at the feet of the 3B, but caught. Home plate ump clearly calls him out. Both runners had taken off on contact. Defenders make the play on the runner going home.

Now the fun part...

The runner on first headed to second and stopped there, looking a little unsure of what was happening. Home plate ump calls time. At this point, the runner on second realizes he should've tagged up but didn't. He walks back to first base.

I, in the field, tell him he has to stay at second because time was called and the ball is dead. The fielders protest, and then realize what's going on, so they appeal at first and I call him out.

Was this handled correctly? Other umps at the field agreed that it was.

Once time was called, runners must be given the opportunity to complete any base running responsibilities prior to an appeal being accepted. RS 1 Dead ball appeal.

Runner should not have been called out

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Once time was called, runners must be given the opportunity to complete any base running responsibilities prior to an appeal being accepted. RS 1 Dead ball appeal.

Runner should not have been called out

He can return to first without risk of being tagged or forced out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

He can return to first without risk of being tagged or forced out?

The ball is dead, right? Can you tag a runner for an out during a dead ball period other than unnecessarily during a dead ball appeal?

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The ball is dead, right? Can you tag a runner for an out during a dead ball period other than unnecessarily during a dead ball appeal?

I ask because I'm seeing this rule....

EFFECT Sec. 9. A. (NOTE: the below are APPEAL PLAYS.)
1. Base runners are in jeopardy until they return to their bases, in order to
comply with the several sections of these rules, when the ball is live.
2. No base runner may return to a preceding base after the ball has been declared dead if the base runner touches any succeeding base, or after a following runner has scored.

Does this not apply? Am I misreading it? Which rule are you referring to that allows them to return to first after time is called I can't find it, and am not sure where to look exactly

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

I ask because I'm seeing this rule....

EFFECT Sec. 9. A. (NOTE: the below are APPEAL PLAYS.)
1. Base runners are in jeopardy until they return to their bases, in order to
comply with the several sections of these rules, when the ball is live.
2. No base runner may return to a preceding base after the ball has been declared dead if the base runner touches any succeeding base, or after a following runner has scored.

Does this not apply? Am I misreading it? Which rule are you referring to that allows them to return to first after time is called I can't find it, and am not sure where to look exactly

What rule would that be?

[Tru_in_Blu]

How about USA 8.7.F
Effect 3
(Dead ball appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any coach or infielder, with or without possession of the the ball , may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball remains dead until the next pitch.

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.

In this case, the runner completing their responsibilities would involve not "advancement", but retreating to the previous base in order to legally tag up.

I think the "giving of ample opportunity" may refer to the period of time BEFORE the umpire calls time.

So even if the PU had perhaps called time a bit prematurely, it would seem that once time had been called, that the runner would not be able to return to first base during the dead ball period.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

How about USA 8.7.F
Effect 3
(Dead ball appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any coach or infielder, with or without possession of the the ball , may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball remains dead until the next pitch.

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.

In this case, the runner completing their responsibilities would involve not "advancement", but retreating to the previous base in order to legally tag up.

I think the "giving of ample opportunity" may refer to the period of time BEFORE the umpire calls time.

So even if the PU had perhaps called time a bit prematurely, it would seem that once time had been called, that the runner would not be able to return to first base during the dead ball period.

That, to me, seems to make logical sense. I can't believe the rule is meant to allow a runner to correct a mistake while not at risk of being put out.

As I said, if the runner had already began returning to first, I likely would've allowed him to do so because of time being granted prematurely. But, this was not the case.

Though one could certainly read a conflict between the 2 rules.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

How about USA 8.7.F
Effect 3
(Dead ball appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any coach or infielder, with or without possession of the the ball , may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball remains dead until the next pitch.

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.

In this case, the runner completing their responsibilities would involve not "advancement", but retreating to the previous base in order to legally tag up.

I think the "giving of ample opportunity" may refer to the period of time BEFORE the umpire calls time.

So even if the PU had perhaps called time a bit prematurely, it would seem that once time had been called, that the runner would not be able to return to first base during the dead ball period.

This rule and rule supplement also applies when a ball is thrown into dead ball territory and is out of play. If that happens, the umpire should make the dead ball call immediately. At that point, is where the "ample opportunity to complete base running responsibilities" kicks in. It seems the same would apply to the OP. Wait until all playing action is ceased, call time, give the runner "ample opportunity", rule on the dead ball appeal if necessary.

From the description in the OP, it seems as if TIME may have been called a bit prematurely since the runner had not tagged up on the caught fly ball. however, once time was called, he does need to be allowed the opportunity to return and tag up before a dead ball appeal can be ruled on.

[IRISHMAFIA]

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.

And I interpret the second sentence to cover this as is notes base running responsibilities, not just advancing. Then again, I'm referring to immediate action by the runner, not a delay. IMO, that is why it notes in the umpire's judgement. After all, what is there to judge on a runner moving to the next base after time has been called?