Runner fails to tag - dead ball is called....???

[Tru_in_Blu]

Defenders make the play on the runner going home.

I'll assume that this means the runner was tagged out, which would essentially be a live ball appeal. Either way, he was out for being tagged off a base.

I think the PU called time prematurely, since the ball should have remained live and the runner from first base was still at risk. Maybe he never would have made it back to first base unless he was sneaky fast or just sneaky.

But when time was called, the runner lost the ability to correct his baserunning mistake.

Was it handled perfectly? Probably not. Handled best as could be expected? Meh - sorta.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Defenders make the play on the runner going home.

I'll assume that this means the runner was tagged out, which would essentially be a live ball appeal. Either way, he was out for being tagged off a base.

I think the PU called time prematurely, since the ball should have remained live and the runner from first base was still at risk. Maybe he never would have made it back to first base unless he was sneaky fast or just sneaky.

But when time was called, the runner lost the ability to correct his baserunning mistake.

Was it handled perfectly? Probably not. Handled best as could be expected? Meh - sorta.

3B actually stepped on third and also threw home for a tag play,either not certain he caught it or of the PUs call.

As far as the result, that's what I felt as well.

Ideally, my partner would've waited a couple more seconds to see where the other runner was. But given that he didn't, and that the runner had yet to correct or begin to correct his mistake, I felt like we didn't have a choice. Had he even started heading back towards first before time was called, I probably would've allowed him to return, since the defense wasn't attempting to make any play on him.

...also, is there any sort of rule I can cite to explain this to the angry manager? I normally wouldn't bother, but he said he'd buy every ump a beer if I could prove we got it right lol

[josephrt1]

I don't do slow pitch but this situation seems to apply to fast pitch as well. My question is why was time called at all. I think the ball should have been kept live in this situation. if runner does not go back to 1st on his/her own, the defense has the responsibility to recognize it and make an appeal. If they don't make an appeal before the next pitch, then play stands and runner stays on 2nd. If runner recognizes he has a problem and starts to head back to 1st, defense will probably realize whats going on and make a live ball appeal or try to tag the runner directly while off the base. But in the case described, calling time complicated the situation.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by josephrt1

I don't do slow pitch but this situation seems to apply to fast pitch as well. My question is why was time called at all. I think the ball should have been kept live in this situation. if runner does not go back to 1st on his/her own, the defense has the responsibility to recognize it and make an appeal. If they don't make an appeal before the next pitch, then play stands and runner stays on 2nd. If runner recognizes he has a problem and starts to head back to 1st, defense will probably realize whats going on and make a live ball appeal or try to tag the runner directly while off the base. But in the case described, calling time complicated the situation.

From 2018 USA Softball Umpire Manual:

In the Slow Pitch game this is well defined, we call time whenever the ball is returned to the infield and all playing action has ceased.

In the Fast Pitch game this is not the case. In Fast Pitch, any umpire at the plate has the ability to call time when the umpires feel it is needed. This normally is when umpires have rotated and need to move to their next starting position. We should always call time when an umpire has chased a fly ball and needs to return back to their next starting position. Calling time can be accomplished without the ball in the circle, as long as all playing action has ceased. The purpose for calling time in a Fast Pitch game is to allow umpires to pre-pitch as they move to their next starting position. This does not mean you have to call TIME after every single play. When you are a student of the game and understand the game of Fast Pitch and are calling time at the appropriate intervals will actually speed up the game. This does not eliminate the ability for another umpire to call time if they ascertain the play dictates.

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

From 2018 USA Softball Umpire Manual:

In the Slow Pitch game this is well defined, we call time whenever the ball is returned to the infield and all playing action has ceased.

In the Fast Pitch game this is not the case. In Fast Pitch, any umpire at the plate has the ability to call time when the umpires feel it is needed. This normally is when umpires have rotated and need to move to their next starting position. We should always call time when an umpire has chased a fly ball and needs to return back to their next starting position. Calling time can be accomplished without the ball in the circle, as long as all playing action has ceased. The purpose for calling time in a Fast Pitch game is to allow umpires to pre-pitch as they move to their next starting position. This does not mean you have to call TIME after every single play. When you are a student of the game and understand the game of Fast Pitch and are calling time at the appropriate intervals will actually speed up the game. This does not eliminate the ability for another umpire to call time if they ascertain the play dictates.

The wording is quoted from the 2018 manual as you stated. I underlined one important phrase. "as long as all playing action has ceased". In the play described, had all action ceased? No one was moving but we had an opportunity for an appeal play or for a runner to return to touch a base left too soon. I still say time should not have been called in this case where a potential play still existed. Umpires should have moved to their next position without tipping off either team and then get ready for the next pitch.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by josephrt1

In the play described, had all action ceased? No one was moving ...

Seems like you answered your own question.

Maybe a longer pause by the PU would have triggered additional action. I did think that time may have been called too soon.

I did err on the part about the runner being able to return to first base once time had been called. That was Irish's notation from the RS#1.

I got that confused a bit with a ball that had gone out of play.

The dead ball appeal may be made:
1. Once runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities. Any infielder...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by josephrt1

The wording is quoted from the 2018 manual as you stated. I underlined one important phrase. "as long as all playing action has ceased". In the play described, had all action ceased? No one was moving but we had an opportunity for an appeal play or for a runner to return to touch a base left too soon. I still say time should not have been called in this case where a potential play still existed. Umpires should have moved to their next position without tipping off either team and then get ready for the next pitch.

It really doesn't matter, time was called and the runner must be given the opportunity to complete any running responsibilities prior to accepting the appeal.

You can "what if" this until all college pitchers throw legally, it isn't going to change anything.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You can "what if" this until all college pitchers throw legally, it isn't going to change anything.

A rare , no only

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

...also, is there any sort of rule I can cite to explain this to the angry manager? I normally wouldn't bother, but he said he'd buy every ump a beer if I could prove we got it right lol

So after several responses, do you feel like any sort of rule has been identified that could help your umpires get a beer?

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

So after several responses, do you feel like any sort of rule has been identified that could help your umpires get a beer?

Not that would convince this guy. I left out his accusations of "bush league" hurled at my partner and I

[EricH]

Just FYI, from July 2010 rules clarifications:

Rule 8 Section 5F
Runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out:
Play: With no outs, R1 on 1B and B2 hits a long fly ball to F8. R1 rounds 2B, sees the ball caught by F8 and begins to return to 1B. The ball is released while R1 is between 2B and 3B. The ball goes out of play while the R1 is between 1B and 2B. What is he correct award for the umpire to apply?

Ruling: Once the ball enters dead ball territory the umpire should first allow the runner to complete their base running responsibilities. The umpire should hesitate to see if the runner is going to retouch 1B. Then the umpire should call dead ball and award two bases from the time of the release of the ball, not the time the ball goes out of play. This means that even though the runner was going back to tag up, the release of the ball happened when the runner was between 2B and 3B. Therefore, the runner would be awarded two (2) bases from the time of the throw. Rule 8 Section 5G

"(T)he umpire should first allow the runner to complete (his) base running responsibilities" before calling dead ball.

[EricH]

Also this:

Rule 8 Section 5F
Runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out:
Play: With no outs, R1 on 1B and B2 hits a long fly ball to F8. R1 rounds 2B, sees F8 catch the ball and begins to return to 1B. The ball is released while the R1 is between 1B and 2B, and goes into dead ball territory. The umpire allows the R1 to complete their base running responsibilities and then awards the R1 3B. R1hears “2 base award” and does not tag up. Instead R1 immediately proceeds to 2B and then 3B. After touching 2B the runner realizes that they forgot to tag up at 1B. They return and retouch 1B and proceed again to 2B and then 3B. As R1 reaches 3B, the defense appeals that R1 did not legally retouch 1B as they had touched the awarded 2B prior to retouching 1B.

Ruling: R1 would be ruled out for retouching 1B after touching the next awarded base. Our rule states that once a base runner advances to the next awarded base, the runner can no longer return to touch any base missed or any base left too soon. So as soon as the award was declared and the runner touched 2B they could not legally return to touch 1B. Rule 8 Section 5G EFFECT

And from June 2016:

PLAY: Top of the 6th inning and the home team is up by 1 run. With one out and R1 on 1B, B3 hits a line drive to left field. R1 leaves thinking the ball will not be caught. F7 makes a shoestring catch and throws hard back to first to pick off R1 who is now trying to get back to 1B. As R1 returns toward 1B, the ball is over-thrown and enters the dugout when R1 is just a couple feet short of re-touching 1st base. The plate umpire delays to give R1 time to complete their base running responsibilities then calls dead-ball and announces “Two bases”. R1 turns around and touches 2B and then onto 3B without re-touching 1B. Prior to the next pitch, the defensive coach requests time to appeal the runner not having properly tagged up on the initial catch by F7.



Ruling: The appeal would be allowed and the runner called out for not tagging up on a caught fly ball. Rule 8, Section 3H. Even though the ball went out of play the runner is still required to tag up on a caught fly ball in order to advance without liability to be called out and the umpire gave the player enough time to retag prior to the dead ball call. Rule 8, Section 5G.

I think the umpire should have protected the runner because of his error in calling time immediately.

[Tru_in_Blu]

These last 2 entries pertain to thrown balls that ended up in DBT. They aren't exactly what this thread was discussing.

They are related and there are differences in how an umpire should decide when to call time out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EricH

Just FYI, from July 2010 rules clarifications:



"(T)he umpire should first allow the runner to complete (his) base running responsibilities" before calling dead ball.

This is not worded properly. By definition, the ball is dead the moment it leaves play, not when the umpire makes such a declaration.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

This is not worded properly. By definition, the ball is dead the moment it leaves play, not when the umpire makes such a declaration.

From one of my earlier posts:

Ruling: Once the ball enters dead ball territory the umpire should first allow the runner to complete their base running responsibilities. The umpire should hesitate to see if the runner is going to retouch 1B. Then the umpire should call dead ball....

As I said, the issue is when the umpire declares the ball dead, not when the ball goes out of play.