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Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 11:52am
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Runner fails to tag - dead ball is called....???

Odd situation last night. Mens slowpitch.

Runners on FIRST and THIRD, 0 Outs.

Liner at the feet of the 3B, but caught. Home plate ump clearly calls him out. Both runners had taken off on contact. Defenders make the play on the runner going home.

Now the fun part...

The runner on first headed to second and stopped there, looking a little unsure of what was happening. Home plate ump calls time. At this point, the runner on second realizes he should've tagged up but didn't. He walks back to first base.

I, in the field, tell him he has to stay at second because time was called and the ball is dead. The fielders protest, and then realize what's going on, so they appeal at first and I call him out.

Was this handled correctly? Other umps at the field agreed that it was.
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 12:46pm
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Defenders make the play on the runner going home.

I'll assume that this means the runner was tagged out, which would essentially be a live ball appeal. Either way, he was out for being tagged off a base.

I think the PU called time prematurely, since the ball should have remained live and the runner from first base was still at risk. Maybe he never would have made it back to first base unless he was sneaky fast or just sneaky.

But when time was called, the runner lost the ability to correct his baserunning mistake.

Was it handled perfectly? Probably not. Handled best as could be expected? Meh - sorta.
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 03:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Defenders make the play on the runner going home.

I'll assume that this means the runner was tagged out, which would essentially be a live ball appeal. Either way, he was out for being tagged off a base.

I think the PU called time prematurely, since the ball should have remained live and the runner from first base was still at risk. Maybe he never would have made it back to first base unless he was sneaky fast or just sneaky.

But when time was called, the runner lost the ability to correct his baserunning mistake.

Was it handled perfectly? Probably not. Handled best as could be expected? Meh - sorta.
3B actually stepped on third and also threw home for a tag play,either not certain he caught it or of the PUs call.

As far as the result, that's what I felt as well.

Ideally, my partner would've waited a couple more seconds to see where the other runner was. But given that he didn't, and that the runner had yet to correct or begin to correct his mistake, I felt like we didn't have a choice. Had he even started heading back towards first before time was called, I probably would've allowed him to return, since the defense wasn't attempting to make any play on him.

...also, is there any sort of rule I can cite to explain this to the angry manager? I normally wouldn't bother, but he said he'd buy every ump a beer if I could prove we got it right lol

Last edited by MechanicGuy; Tue Jul 10, 2018 at 03:30pm.
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Old Tue Jul 10, 2018, 06:40pm
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I don't do slow pitch but this situation seems to apply to fast pitch as well. My question is why was time called at all. I think the ball should have been kept live in this situation. if runner does not go back to 1st on his/her own, the defense has the responsibility to recognize it and make an appeal. If they don't make an appeal before the next pitch, then play stands and runner stays on 2nd. If runner recognizes he has a problem and starts to head back to 1st, defense will probably realize whats going on and make a live ball appeal or try to tag the runner directly while off the base. But in the case described, calling time complicated the situation.
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 07:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
Odd situation last night. Mens slowpitch.

Runners on FIRST and THIRD, 0 Outs.

Liner at the feet of the 3B, but caught. Home plate ump clearly calls him out. Both runners had taken off on contact. Defenders make the play on the runner going home.

Now the fun part...

The runner on first headed to second and stopped there, looking a little unsure of what was happening. Home plate ump calls time. At this point, the runner on second realizes he should've tagged up but didn't. He walks back to first base.

I, in the field, tell him he has to stay at second because time was called and the ball is dead. The fielders protest, and then realize what's going on, so they appeal at first and I call him out.

Was this handled correctly? Other umps at the field agreed that it was.
Once time was called, runners must be given the opportunity to complete any base running responsibilities prior to an appeal being accepted. RS 1 Dead ball appeal.

Runner should not have been called out
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Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Wed Jul 11, 2018 at 07:58am.
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josephrt1 View Post
I don't do slow pitch but this situation seems to apply to fast pitch as well. My question is why was time called at all. I think the ball should have been kept live in this situation. if runner does not go back to 1st on his/her own, the defense has the responsibility to recognize it and make an appeal. If they don't make an appeal before the next pitch, then play stands and runner stays on 2nd. If runner recognizes he has a problem and starts to head back to 1st, defense will probably realize whats going on and make a live ball appeal or try to tag the runner directly while off the base. But in the case described, calling time complicated the situation.
From 2018 USA Softball Umpire Manual:

In the Slow Pitch game this is well defined, we call time whenever the ball is returned to the infield and all playing action has ceased.

In the Fast Pitch game this is not the case. In Fast Pitch, any umpire at the plate has the ability to call time when the umpires feel it is needed. This normally is when umpires have rotated and need to move to their next starting position. We should always call time when an umpire has chased a fly ball and needs to return back to their next starting position. Calling time can be accomplished without the ball in the circle, as long as all playing action has ceased. The purpose for calling time in a Fast Pitch game is to allow umpires to pre-pitch as they move to their next starting position. This does not mean you have to call TIME after every single play. When you are a student of the game and understand the game of Fast Pitch and are calling time at the appropriate intervals will actually speed up the game. This does not eliminate the ability for another umpire to call time if they ascertain the play dictates.
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 09:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
From 2018 USA Softball Umpire Manual:

In the Slow Pitch game this is well defined, we call time whenever the ball is returned to the infield and all playing action has ceased.

In the Fast Pitch game this is not the case. In Fast Pitch, any umpire at the plate has the ability to call time when the umpires feel it is needed. This normally is when umpires have rotated and need to move to their next starting position. We should always call time when an umpire has chased a fly ball and needs to return back to their next starting position. Calling time can be accomplished without the ball in the circle, as long as all playing action has ceased. The purpose for calling time in a Fast Pitch game is to allow umpires to pre-pitch as they move to their next starting position. This does not mean you have to call TIME after every single play. When you are a student of the game and understand the game of Fast Pitch and are calling time at the appropriate intervals will actually speed up the game. This does not eliminate the ability for another umpire to call time if they ascertain the play dictates.
The wording is quoted from the 2018 manual as you stated. I underlined one important phrase. "as long as all playing action has ceased". In the play described, had all action ceased? No one was moving but we had an opportunity for an appeal play or for a runner to return to touch a base left too soon. I still say time should not have been called in this case where a potential play still existed. Umpires should have moved to their next position without tipping off either team and then get ready for the next pitch.
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:33am
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Originally Posted by josephrt1 View Post
In the play described, had all action ceased? No one was moving ...
Seems like you answered your own question.

Maybe a longer pause by the PU would have triggered additional action. I did think that time may have been called too soon.

I did err on the part about the runner being able to return to first base once time had been called. That was Irish's notation from the RS#1.

I got that confused a bit with a ball that had gone out of play.

The dead ball appeal may be made:
1. Once runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities. Any infielder...
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Last edited by Tru_in_Blu; Wed Jul 11, 2018 at 10:36am. Reason: sp
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:02am
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Once time was called, runners must be given the opportunity to complete any base running responsibilities prior to an appeal being accepted. RS 1 Dead ball appeal.

Runner should not have been called out
He can return to first without risk of being tagged or forced out?
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josephrt1 View Post
The wording is quoted from the 2018 manual as you stated. I underlined one important phrase. "as long as all playing action has ceased". In the play described, had all action ceased? No one was moving but we had an opportunity for an appeal play or for a runner to return to touch a base left too soon. I still say time should not have been called in this case where a potential play still existed. Umpires should have moved to their next position without tipping off either team and then get ready for the next pitch.
It really doesn't matter, time was called and the runner must be given the opportunity to complete any running responsibilities prior to accepting the appeal.

You can "what if" this until all college pitchers throw legally, it isn't going to change anything.
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:05am
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Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
He can return to first without risk of being tagged or forced out?
The ball is dead, right? Can you tag a runner for an out during a dead ball period other than unnecessarily during a dead ball appeal?
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 11:31am
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
The ball is dead, right? Can you tag a runner for an out during a dead ball period other than unnecessarily during a dead ball appeal?
I ask because I'm seeing this rule....

EFFECT Sec. 9. A. (NOTE: the below are APPEAL PLAYS.)
1. Base runners are in jeopardy until they return to their bases, in order to
comply with the several sections of these rules, when the ball is live.
2. No base runner may return to a preceding base after the ball has been declared dead if the base runner touches any succeeding base, or after a following runner has scored.

Does this not apply? Am I misreading it? Which rule are you referring to that allows them to return to first after time is called I can't find it, and am not sure where to look exactly
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 12:01pm
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
You can "what if" this until all college pitchers throw legally, it isn't going to change anything.
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 12:27pm
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Irish, this is what I've always been unsure of...

1. Runner leaves early, arrives at next base.
2. Defense asks for time, umpire grants it.
3. Runner realizes defense is going to dead-ball appeal, heads back to 1B.
We deny the appeal?

The ball is dead because we granted time. We would never grant time unless, in our judgement, all runners have finished doing what they're gonna do (my paraphrase).
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Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 01:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
Odd situation last night. Mens slowpitch.

Runners on FIRST and THIRD, 0 Outs.

Liner at the feet of the 3B, but caught. Home plate ump clearly calls him out. Both runners had taken off on contact. Defenders make the play on the runner going home.

Now the fun part...

The runner on first headed to second and stopped there, looking a little unsure of what was happening. Home plate ump calls time. At this point, the runner on second realizes he should've tagged up but didn't. He walks back to first base.

I, in the field, tell him he has to stay at second because time was called and the ball is dead. The fielders protest, and then realize what's going on, so they appeal at first and I call him out.

Was this handled correctly? Other umps at the field agreed that it was.
I think you (BU) were correct in your handling of this because the runner had arrived and was standing at the succeeding base when time was called. I think the PU was premature to call time when he did because it denied the offensive player the ability to return to first base legally.

The issue here is when do we call time on a play like this? How long do we wait for one of the teams to realize WTH is going on and do something. Given the OP indicates the runner at second was "wondering what was going on?" This is a clue something is going on in his mind and we need to give him that few seconds to make a decision (and the defense to react).
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