What is rule for dead ball with runner on 3rd?

[TravelCoach]

I could use some clarification for a U10 Cal Ripken League situation...

We play an aggressive team with a very aggressive player who, whenever on 3rd base, charges halfway down third base line after pitch is caught by catcher. He rarely "leaves early," so that really isn't a factor. What he'll try to do is time is charge to home with the catcher's throwback to the pitcher. We've had conflicting "solutions" to this, centered on "simply getting the pitcher back to the rubber." I've been told that if the pitcher is on the rubber and the catcher throws the ball back, making the ball dead, the runner (even if he is inches from reaching home) must return to 3rd. Yet, other umps have said that his reaching home would be allowed, as he executed a "delayed steal."

Can anyone shed light on this?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by TravelCoach

I could use some clarification for a U10 Cal Ripken League situation...

We play an aggressive team with a very aggressive player who, whenever on 3rd base, charges halfway down third base line after pitch is caught by catcher. He rarely "leaves early," so that really isn't a factor. What he'll try to do is time is charge to home with the catcher's throwback to the pitcher. We've had conflicting "solutions" to this, centered on "simply getting the pitcher back to the rubber." I've been told that if the pitcher is on the rubber and the catcher throws the ball back, making the ball dead, the runner (even if he is inches from reaching home) must return to 3rd. Yet, other umps have said that his reaching home would be allowed, as he executed a "delayed steal."

Can anyone shed light on this?

It's not a dead ball. The runner can go.

[TwoBits]

May want to check if this is some sort of local league rule. One rec league I do states the runner may only steal home, "...if the pitcher misses the throwback or a play is attempted on the runner." Unfortunately, every plate meeting begins with how am I going to interpret that. Some umpires are allowing a steal when the ball goes past the pitcher and some allow a steal when the pitcher merely drops the ball. Some umpires allow a steal when the pitcher or catcher feints a throw or runs toward the runner, some do not.

[TravelCoach]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

May want to check if this is some sort of local league rule. One rec league I do states the runner may only steal home, "...if the pitcher misses the throwback or a play is attempted on the runner." Unfortunately, every plate meeting begins with how am I going to interpret that. Some umpires are allowing a steal when the ball goes past the pitcher and some allow a steal when the pitcher merely drops the ball. Some umpires allow a steal when the pitcher or catcher feints a throw or runs toward the runner, some do not.

Thanks for the replies. I guess the question is, why does a dead ball have no effect on the baserunner's actions? If there's no overthrow to the pitcher (which would obviously allow the runner to advance home), why would a ball made dead by the pitcher not have the effect of forcing runners back to their plates? It seems that if the ball is not dead when returned to the rubber, all runners with bases loaded could simply ignore the dead ball and turn their fair leads (they did not leave the base early) into advanced bases and the pitcher would be left with an unmanageable defensive situation.

[UmpJM]

TravelCoach,

There is no rule that makes the ball dead when the pitcher has the ball on the mound/rubber.

Perhaps you could teach your players to throw out the overly aggressive R3. They will likely mess this up the first few times they try, but they'll get the hang of it eventually.

JM

[waltjp]

If a runner were attempting to steal second base would you send him back if the catcher threw the ball to the pitcher on the rubber?

After answering this question ask yourself why a runner who is between third and home is treated any differently.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by TravelCoach

Thanks for the replies. I guess the question is, why does a dead ball have no effect on the baserunner's actions? If there's no overthrow to the pitcher (which would obviously allow the runner to advance home), why would a ball made dead by the pitcher not have the effect of forcing runners back to their plates? It seems that if the ball is not dead when returned to the rubber, all runners with bases loaded could simply ignore the dead ball and turn their fair leads (they did not leave the base early) into advanced bases and the pitcher would be left with an unmanageable defensive situation.

Try to understand something. You are MISTAKEN! The ball is never dead when F2 throws the ball back to F1! You are thinking of some idiotic myth that was instilled to you by your dumb coach when you were a kid! Runners can run and your defense may attempt to throw them out because the ball is LIVE!

Now try to remember the following:

Players do not "make the ball dead"! Players and coaches request TIME. The ball is alive until the UMPIRE calls TIME.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Try to understand something. You are MISTAKEN! The ball is never dead when F2 throws the ball back to F1! You are thinking of some idiotic myth that was instilled to you by your dumb coach when you were a kid! Runners can run and your defense may attempt to throw them out because the ball is LIVE!

Now try to remember the following:

Players do not "make the ball dead"! Players and coaches request TIME. The ball is alive until the UMPIRE calls TIME.

In certain levels of LL (Cal Ripken, Babe Ruth, etc...), the runners cannot lead-off before the pitch reaches the batter (or catcher). Therefore, the play is essentially dead once the pitcher receives the ball.

TravelCoach-

My suggestion would be to have your catcher run at the runner at third until he retreats. Then from there, throw the ball to the pitcher. Just my thoughts

-Josh

[mbyron]

You've got the rules info. For coaching advice try eteamz.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jdmara

In certain levels of LL (Cal Ripken, Babe Ruth, etc...), the runners cannot lead-off before the pitch reaches the batter (or catcher). Therefore, the play is essentially dead once the pitcher receives the ball.

No, this is not true. The runner must return to touch his base when both the pitcher and catcher are in their positions ready to make the next pitch. Just because the pitcher has received the ball (in any rule set) does not mean the runner can't try to run home. The pitcher has to toe the rubber and the catcher must be in a catching position in his box in order to force the runner to touch his base. Teach the players to make a play on R3.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No, this is not true. The runner must return to touch his base when both the pitcher and catcher are in their positions ready to make the next pitch. Just because the pitcher has received the ball (in any rule set) does not mean the runner can't try to run home. The pitcher has to toe the rubber and the catcher must be in a catching position in his box in order to force the runner to touch his base. Teach the players to make a play on R3.

I stand corrected...Thanks Steve

-Josh

[TravelCoach]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No, this is not true. The runner must return to touch his base when both the pitcher and catcher are in their positions ready to make the next pitch. Just because the pitcher has received the ball (in any rule set) does not mean the runner can't try to run home. The pitcher has to toe the rubber and the catcher must be in a catching position in his box in order to force the runner to touch his base. Teach the players to make a play on R3.

Got it, thanks.

[TravelCoach]

Originally Posted by jdmara

In certain levels of LL (Cal Ripken, Babe Ruth, etc...), the runners cannot lead-off before the pitch reaches the batter (or catcher). Therefore, the play is essentially dead once the pitcher receives the ball.

TravelCoach-

My suggestion would be to have your catcher run at the runner at third until he retreats. Then from there, throw the ball to the pitcher. Just my thoughts

-Josh

Thanks Josh, that is how I understood it, as it pertains to Cal Ripken. We've developed an F2 to F1 defense that has the catcher run down the line, driving R3 back, while F3 covers home.

[DG]

Originally Posted by TravelCoach

I could use some clarification for a U10 Cal Ripken League situation...

We play an aggressive team with a very aggressive player who, whenever on 3rd base, charges halfway down third base line after pitch is caught by catcher. He rarely "leaves early," so that really isn't a factor. What he'll try to do is time is charge to home with the catcher's throwback to the pitcher. We've had conflicting "solutions" to this, centered on "simply getting the pitcher back to the rubber." I've been told that if the pitcher is on the rubber and the catcher throws the ball back, making the ball dead, the runner (even if he is inches from reaching home) must return to 3rd. Yet, other umps have said that his reaching home would be allowed, as he executed a "delayed steal."

Can anyone shed light on this?

Agressive play if you can get away with it. A well coached team would put a stop to this quickly. No rules to prevent the attempt.