Runner fails to tag - dead ball is called....???

[Tru_in_Blu]

These last 2 entries pertain to thrown balls that ended up in DBT. They aren't exactly what this thread was discussing.

They are related and there are differences in how an umpire should decide when to call time out.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

These last 2 entries pertain to thrown balls that ended up in DBT. They aren't exactly what this thread was discussing.

They are related and there are differences in how an umpire should decide when to call time out.

They most certainly ARE related. They have to do with an umpire calling time before runners have completed their running responsibilities. Most umpires believe they should call time AS SOON AS the ball goes out of play, whereas they have more leeway in other situations. These plays show definitively that the umpire should give runners time even when the ball has gone out of play. If umpires should give runners time even when the ball has gone out of play, they should most definitely give runners time when it has not.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by EricH

They most certainly ARE related.

Yeah, that's what I said.

[EricH]

Another clarification from May 2013:

Play: With one out and R1 on 1B, B3 hits a long fly ball to F7 which is caught. R1 leaves 1B before the ball is touched by F7 and has rounded 2B on their way to 3B when F7 throws the ball into dead ball territory. R1 is standing on 3B when the ball entered dead ball territory. Does the runner have the right to return to 1B since they have already touched an awarded base?

Ruling: Base runners should always be given the opportunity to return and touch a base missed or left too soon when the ball becomes dead. The issue of “Once a base runner advances to the next awarded base, the runner may no longer return to touch any base missed or any base left too soon,” only applies after the runner is awarded that base. In this play, R1 has made it to 3B during the play and the award has not been given yet. R1 has not reached the base they would be awarded. Once the ball is declared “dead” and the umpire gives the award of two bases, the R1 has to go back to the base they left too soon or if R1 continues to HP from 3B, R1 would not be able to return. The award must be given and the runner must then touch the bases they are awarded.

NOTE: "Once the ball is declared 'dead'... the (runner) has to go back to the base they left too soon."

The runner can return after the ball has been declared dead. That should clarify.

Sorry. No beer for you.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by EricH

NOTE: "Once the ball is declared 'dead'... the (runner) has to go back to the base they left too soon."

The runner can return after the ball has been declared dead. That should clarify.

ONLY if the ball has gone out of play.

That was not the crux of this string. It was an umpire probably calling time too soon. Although in slow pitch, once all action has ceased, the umpire is supposed to call "time".

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

ONLY if the ball has gone out of play.

No. The text says "once the ball has been declared dead," not "once the ball goes out of play". It is addressing the umpire's action, not the status of the ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EricH

Just FYI, from July 2010 rules clarifications:



"(T)he umpire should first allow the runner to complete (his) base running responsibilities" before calling dead ball.

This is not worded properly. By definition, the ball is dead the moment it leaves play, not when the umpire makes such a declaration.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

This is not worded properly. By definition, the ball is dead the moment it leaves play, not when the umpire makes such a declaration.

From one of my earlier posts:

Ruling: Once the ball enters dead ball territory the umpire should first allow the runner to complete their base running responsibilities. The umpire should hesitate to see if the runner is going to retouch 1B. Then the umpire should call dead ball....

As I said, the issue is when the umpire declares the ball dead, not when the ball goes out of play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EricH

From one of my earlier posts:



As I said, the issue is when the umpire declares the ball dead, not when the ball goes out of play.

Point is the umpire does not determine when the ball becomes dead, the rule does. Waiting for an umpire to open his mouth does not delay the status of the ball. As previously noted, it is poorly worded

Ruling: Base runners should always be given the opportunity to return and touch a base missed or left too soon when the ball becomes dead

[EricH]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Waiting for an umpire to open his mouth does not delay the status of the ball.

Again, the purpose is for the umpire to delay his declaration so that the runners can complete their base running responsibilities. When the ball became dead does not matter.

And in the situation presented by OP the ball never went out of play. When the umpire opened his mouth was all that mattered.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EricH

Again, the purpose is for the umpire to delay his declaration so that the runners can complete their base running responsibilities. When the ball became dead does not matter.

The runners can complete their responsibilities, like a base untouched or not tagged, as soon as the ball is dead; or for that matter while it is still live.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The runners can complete their responsibilities, like a base untouched or not tagged, as soon as the ball is dead; or for that matter while it is still live.

Why are you fighting this? The rules clarification was written to help umpires understand when to declare the ball dead and make subsequent calls so that we do not get into situations like the OP's.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EricH

Why are you fighting this? The rules clarification was written to help umpires understand when to declare the ball dead and make subsequent calls so that we do not get into situations like the OP's.

Not fighting, my first post on this except teasing Irish.

Just expanding/clarifying. As you said "umpire to delay his declaration so that the runners can "; which means completing running while the ball is dead and waiting for the umpire to announce.

[EricH]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EricH

Why are you fighting this? The rules clarification was written to help umpires understand when to declare the ball dead and make subsequent calls so that we do not get into situations like the OP's.

Probably because he knows better

I'll stand on, and have since 1989, 8.5.G.Exception.2 all day long.