Runner fails to tag - dead ball is called....???

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

I ask because I'm seeing this rule....

EFFECT Sec. 9. A. (NOTE: the below are APPEAL PLAYS.)
1. Base runners are in jeopardy until they return to their bases, in order to
comply with the several sections of these rules, when the ball is live.
2. No base runner may return to a preceding base after the ball has been declared dead if the base runner touches any succeeding base, or after a following runner has scored.

Does this not apply? Am I misreading it? Which rule are you referring to that allows them to return to first after time is called I can't find it, and am not sure where to look exactly

What rule would that be?

[Tru_in_Blu]

How about USA 8.7.F
Effect 3
(Dead ball appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any coach or infielder, with or without possession of the the ball , may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball remains dead until the next pitch.

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.

In this case, the runner completing their responsibilities would involve not "advancement", but retreating to the previous base in order to legally tag up.

I think the "giving of ample opportunity" may refer to the period of time BEFORE the umpire calls time.

So even if the PU had perhaps called time a bit prematurely, it would seem that once time had been called, that the runner would not be able to return to first base during the dead ball period.

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

How about USA 8.7.F
Effect 3
(Dead ball appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any coach or infielder, with or without possession of the the ball , may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball remains dead until the next pitch.

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.

In this case, the runner completing their responsibilities would involve not "advancement", but retreating to the previous base in order to legally tag up.

I think the "giving of ample opportunity" may refer to the period of time BEFORE the umpire calls time.

So even if the PU had perhaps called time a bit prematurely, it would seem that once time had been called, that the runner would not be able to return to first base during the dead ball period.

That, to me, seems to make logical sense. I can't believe the rule is meant to allow a runner to correct a mistake while not at risk of being put out.

As I said, if the runner had already began returning to first, I likely would've allowed him to do so because of time being granted prematurely. But, this was not the case.

Though one could certainly read a conflict between the 2 rules.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

How about USA 8.7.F
Effect 3
(Dead ball appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any coach or infielder, with or without possession of the the ball , may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball remains dead until the next pitch.

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.

In this case, the runner completing their responsibilities would involve not "advancement", but retreating to the previous base in order to legally tag up.

I think the "giving of ample opportunity" may refer to the period of time BEFORE the umpire calls time.

So even if the PU had perhaps called time a bit prematurely, it would seem that once time had been called, that the runner would not be able to return to first base during the dead ball period.

This rule and rule supplement also applies when a ball is thrown into dead ball territory and is out of play. If that happens, the umpire should make the dead ball call immediately. At that point, is where the "ample opportunity to complete base running responsibilities" kicks in. It seems the same would apply to the OP. Wait until all playing action is ceased, call time, give the runner "ample opportunity", rule on the dead ball appeal if necessary.

From the description in the OP, it seems as if TIME may have been called a bit prematurely since the runner had not tagged up on the caught fly ball. however, once time was called, he does need to be allowed the opportunity to return and tag up before a dead ball appeal can be ruled on.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Andy

This rule and rule supplement also applies when a ball is thrown into dead ball territory and is out of play. If that happens, the umpire should make the dead ball call immediately. At that point, is where the "ample opportunity to complete base running responsibilities" kicks in. It seems the same would apply to the OP. Wait until all playing action is ceased, call time, give the runner "ample opportunity", rule on the dead ball appeal if necessary.

From the description in the OP, it seems as if TIME may have been called a bit prematurely since the runner had not tagged up on the caught fly ball. however, once time was called, he does need to be allowed the opportunity to return and tag up before a dead ball appeal can be ruled on.

There is actually a separate notation in the RS for balls that go out of play:
2. When a ball goes out of play, runners must be give the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities before the dead ball appeal can be made.

Since the ball going out of play results in an immediate dead ball situation, it makes sense that runners need to be given the chance to correct base running errors.

If it's simply a situation where the ball remains in live ball territory, I don't think that second point is valid. It becomes more the umpire's decision as to when to call time.

[IRISHMAFIA]

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.

And I interpret the second sentence to cover this as is notes base running responsibilities, not just advancing. Then again, I'm referring to immediate action by the runner, not a delay. IMO, that is why it notes in the umpire's judgement. After all, what is there to judge on a runner moving to the next base after time has been called?

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And I interpret the second sentence to cover this as is notes base running responsibilities, not just advancing. Then again, I'm referring to immediate action by the runner, not a delay. IMO, that is why it notes in the umpire's judgement. After all, what is there to judge on a runner moving to the next base after time has been called?

Immediate seems to be the pertinent word. And "complete", for that matter.

You can't really COMPLETE something you haven't actually started, can you?

[Tru_in_Blu]

OK, let's change the scenario a bit but keep the spirit of the discussion.

JO game, 2 umpire system.

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, no outs.

B3 hits a ball to shallow RF where F3, F4, and F9 are all converging on the ball.

R1 is tagging up at 2B, R2 is going half-way.

F4 makes an exceptional over-the-shoulder catch of the batted ball running away from the infield. R1 tags up and heads to 3B. F4 turns and throws to 3B and the ball hits R1 in the back. R2, seeing the ball go to 3B proceeds to 2B, but never tagged up.

The throw injures R1 enough for her to ask for time which is granted by the PU.

For the "ample time" proponents, will you allow R2 to return to 1B during this dead ball period? If so, under what rule?

If not, is there anything R2 can do once the PU puts the ball back into play? If she steps off the base (even going back to 1B), she will be guilty of a LB violation. Or is the offense just praying for that one pitch to occur?

[jmkupka]

I feel the entire "ample time" aspect of the rule is based on the premise that the runner (or her coach) knows full well she screwed up, and knows she needs to try to get back at the absolute first chance she gets.

With that said, TruInBlu, I think her "ample time" would be when she sees the ball headed to 3B (and while she's halfway between 1B & 2B), and not a free pass (when standing on 2B) back to 1B when the ball's declared dead.

If y'all think Im talking out of my hat, please let me know....

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I feel the entire "ample time" aspect of the rule is based on the premise that the runner (or her coach) knows full well she screwed up, and knows she needs to try to get back at the absolute first chance she gets.

With that said, TruInBlu, I think her "ample time" would be when she sees the ball headed to 3B (and while she's halfway between 1B & 2B), and not a free pass (when standing on 2B) back to 1B when the ball's declared dead.

If y'all think Im talking out of my hat, please let me know....

I'm not talking about delaying an appeal by waiting for action from the runner in question. As previously noted, in the OP, and the subsequent play noted by TIB, it seems the umpires are too quick to kill the ball. When the ball is live and there is more than a single runner, an umpire should have the whereabouts to scan the base paths for any continuing action or reactions prior to killing the play. I have always been instructed to feel comfortable that all runners have completed their running tasks prior to killing

[jmkupka]

exactly... if we don't rush the timeout, the whole thing will likely resolve itself as a live-ball appeal anyway.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy

...also, is there any sort of rule I can cite to explain this to the angry manager? I normally wouldn't bother, but he said he'd buy every ump a beer if I could prove we got it right lol

So after several responses, do you feel like any sort of rule has been identified that could help your umpires get a beer?

[MechanicGuy]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

So after several responses, do you feel like any sort of rule has been identified that could help your umpires get a beer?

Not that would convince this guy. I left out his accusations of "bush league" hurled at my partner and I

[EricH]

Just FYI, from July 2010 rules clarifications:

Rule 8 Section 5F
Runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out:
Play: With no outs, R1 on 1B and B2 hits a long fly ball to F8. R1 rounds 2B, sees the ball caught by F8 and begins to return to 1B. The ball is released while R1 is between 2B and 3B. The ball goes out of play while the R1 is between 1B and 2B. What is he correct award for the umpire to apply?

Ruling: Once the ball enters dead ball territory the umpire should first allow the runner to complete their base running responsibilities. The umpire should hesitate to see if the runner is going to retouch 1B. Then the umpire should call dead ball and award two bases from the time of the release of the ball, not the time the ball goes out of play. This means that even though the runner was going back to tag up, the release of the ball happened when the runner was between 2B and 3B. Therefore, the runner would be awarded two (2) bases from the time of the throw. Rule 8 Section 5G

"(T)he umpire should first allow the runner to complete (his) base running responsibilities" before calling dead ball.

[EricH]

Also this:

Rule 8 Section 5F
Runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out:
Play: With no outs, R1 on 1B and B2 hits a long fly ball to F8. R1 rounds 2B, sees F8 catch the ball and begins to return to 1B. The ball is released while the R1 is between 1B and 2B, and goes into dead ball territory. The umpire allows the R1 to complete their base running responsibilities and then awards the R1 3B. R1hears “2 base award” and does not tag up. Instead R1 immediately proceeds to 2B and then 3B. After touching 2B the runner realizes that they forgot to tag up at 1B. They return and retouch 1B and proceed again to 2B and then 3B. As R1 reaches 3B, the defense appeals that R1 did not legally retouch 1B as they had touched the awarded 2B prior to retouching 1B.

Ruling: R1 would be ruled out for retouching 1B after touching the next awarded base. Our rule states that once a base runner advances to the next awarded base, the runner can no longer return to touch any base missed or any base left too soon. So as soon as the award was declared and the runner touched 2B they could not legally return to touch 1B. Rule 8 Section 5G EFFECT

And from June 2016:

PLAY: Top of the 6th inning and the home team is up by 1 run. With one out and R1 on 1B, B3 hits a line drive to left field. R1 leaves thinking the ball will not be caught. F7 makes a shoestring catch and throws hard back to first to pick off R1 who is now trying to get back to 1B. As R1 returns toward 1B, the ball is over-thrown and enters the dugout when R1 is just a couple feet short of re-touching 1st base. The plate umpire delays to give R1 time to complete their base running responsibilities then calls dead-ball and announces “Two bases”. R1 turns around and touches 2B and then onto 3B without re-touching 1B. Prior to the next pitch, the defensive coach requests time to appeal the runner not having properly tagged up on the initial catch by F7.



Ruling: The appeal would be allowed and the runner called out for not tagging up on a caught fly ball. Rule 8, Section 3H. Even though the ball went out of play the runner is still required to tag up on a caught fly ball in order to advance without liability to be called out and the umpire gave the player enough time to retag prior to the dead ball call. Rule 8, Section 5G.

I think the umpire should have protected the runner because of his error in calling time immediately.