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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jul 11, 2018, 08:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post
I ask because I'm seeing this rule....

EFFECT Sec. 9. A. (NOTE: the below are APPEAL PLAYS.)
1. Base runners are in jeopardy until they return to their bases, in order to
comply with the several sections of these rules, when the ball is live.
2. No base runner may return to a preceding base after the ball has been declared dead if the base runner touches any succeeding base, or after a following runner has scored.

Does this not apply? Am I misreading it? Which rule are you referring to that allows them to return to first after time is called I can't find it, and am not sure where to look exactly
What rule would that be?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2018, 10:02am
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How about USA 8.7.F
Effect 3
(Dead ball appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any coach or infielder, with or without possession of the the ball , may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball remains dead until the next pitch.

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.


In this case, the runner completing their responsibilities would involve not "advancement", but retreating to the previous base in order to legally tag up.

I think the "giving of ample opportunity" may refer to the period of time BEFORE the umpire calls time.

So even if the PU had perhaps called time a bit prematurely, it would seem that once time had been called, that the runner would not be able to return to first base during the dead ball period.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2018, 10:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
How about USA 8.7.F
Effect 3
(Dead ball appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any coach or infielder, with or without possession of the the ball , may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball remains dead until the next pitch.

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.


In this case, the runner completing their responsibilities would involve not "advancement", but retreating to the previous base in order to legally tag up.

I think the "giving of ample opportunity" may refer to the period of time BEFORE the umpire calls time.

So even if the PU had perhaps called time a bit prematurely, it would seem that once time had been called, that the runner would not be able to return to first base during the dead ball period.
That, to me, seems to make logical sense. I can't believe the rule is meant to allow a runner to correct a mistake while not at risk of being put out.

As I said, if the runner had already began returning to first, I likely would've allowed him to do so because of time being granted prematurely. But, this was not the case.

Though one could certainly read a conflict between the 2 rules.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2018, 10:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
How about USA 8.7.F
Effect 3
(Dead ball appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any coach or infielder, with or without possession of the the ball , may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball remains dead until the next pitch.

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.


In this case, the runner completing their responsibilities would involve not "advancement", but retreating to the previous base in order to legally tag up.

I think the "giving of ample opportunity" may refer to the period of time BEFORE the umpire calls time.

So even if the PU had perhaps called time a bit prematurely, it would seem that once time had been called, that the runner would not be able to return to first base during the dead ball period.

This rule and rule supplement also applies when a ball is thrown into dead ball territory and is out of play. If that happens, the umpire should make the dead ball call immediately. At that point, is where the "ample opportunity to complete base running responsibilities" kicks in. It seems the same would apply to the OP. Wait until all playing action is ceased, call time, give the runner "ample opportunity", rule on the dead ball appeal if necessary.

From the description in the OP, it seems as if TIME may have been called a bit prematurely since the runner had not tagged up on the caught fly ball. however, once time was called, he does need to be allowed the opportunity to return and tag up before a dead ball appeal can be ruled on.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2018, 11:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
This rule and rule supplement also applies when a ball is thrown into dead ball territory and is out of play. If that happens, the umpire should make the dead ball call immediately. At that point, is where the "ample opportunity to complete base running responsibilities" kicks in. It seems the same would apply to the OP. Wait until all playing action is ceased, call time, give the runner "ample opportunity", rule on the dead ball appeal if necessary.

From the description in the OP, it seems as if TIME may have been called a bit prematurely since the runner had not tagged up on the caught fly ball. however, once time was called, he does need to be allowed the opportunity to return and tag up before a dead ball appeal can be ruled on.
There is actually a separate notation in the RS for balls that go out of play:
2. When a ball goes out of play, runners must be give the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities before the dead ball appeal can be made.

Since the ball going out of play results in an immediate dead ball situation, it makes sense that runners need to be given the chance to correct base running errors.

If it's simply a situation where the ball remains in live ball territory, I don't think that second point is valid. It becomes more the umpire's decision as to when to call time.
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Last edited by Tru_in_Blu; Fri Jul 13, 2018 at 11:25am.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2018, 11:35am
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Quote:

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.
And I interpret the second sentence to cover this as is notes base running responsibilities, not just advancing. Then again, I'm referring to immediate action by the runner, not a delay. IMO, that is why it notes in the umpire's judgement. After all, what is there to judge on a runner moving to the next base after time has been called?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jul 13, 2018, 12:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
And I interpret the second sentence to cover this as is notes base running responsibilities, not just advancing. Then again, I'm referring to immediate action by the runner, not a delay. IMO, that is why it notes in the umpire's judgement. After all, what is there to judge on a runner moving to the next base after time has been called?
Immediate seems to be the pertinent word. And "complete", for that matter.

You can't really COMPLETE something you haven't actually started, can you?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:29am
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OK, let's change the scenario a bit but keep the spirit of the discussion.

JO game, 2 umpire system.

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, no outs.

B3 hits a ball to shallow RF where F3, F4, and F9 are all converging on the ball.

R1 is tagging up at 2B, R2 is going half-way.

F4 makes an exceptional over-the-shoulder catch of the batted ball running away from the infield. R1 tags up and heads to 3B. F4 turns and throws to 3B and the ball hits R1 in the back. R2, seeing the ball go to 3B proceeds to 2B, but never tagged up.

The throw injures R1 enough for her to ask for time which is granted by the PU.

For the "ample time" proponents, will you allow R2 to return to 1B during this dead ball period? If so, under what rule?

If not, is there anything R2 can do once the PU puts the ball back into play? If she steps off the base (even going back to 1B), she will be guilty of a LB violation. Or is the offense just praying for that one pitch to occur?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:41pm
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I feel the entire "ample time" aspect of the rule is based on the premise that the runner (or her coach) knows full well she screwed up, and knows she needs to try to get back at the absolute first chance she gets.

With that said, TruInBlu, I think her "ample time" would be when she sees the ball headed to 3B (and while she's halfway between 1B & 2B), and not a free pass (when standing on 2B) back to 1B when the ball's declared dead.

If y'all think Im talking out of my hat, please let me know....
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 15, 2018, 09:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
I feel the entire "ample time" aspect of the rule is based on the premise that the runner (or her coach) knows full well she screwed up, and knows she needs to try to get back at the absolute first chance she gets.

With that said, TruInBlu, I think her "ample time" would be when she sees the ball headed to 3B (and while she's halfway between 1B & 2B), and not a free pass (when standing on 2B) back to 1B when the ball's declared dead.

If y'all think Im talking out of my hat, please let me know....
I'm not talking about delaying an appeal by waiting for action from the runner in question. As previously noted, in the OP, and the subsequent play noted by TIB, it seems the umpires are too quick to kill the ball. When the ball is live and there is more than a single runner, an umpire should have the whereabouts to scan the base paths for any continuing action or reactions prior to killing the play. I have always been instructed to feel comfortable that all runners have completed their running tasks prior to killing
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jul 15, 2018, 08:46pm
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exactly... if we don't rush the timeout, the whole thing will likely resolve itself as a live-ball appeal anyway.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Yesterday, 07:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicGuy View Post

...also, is there any sort of rule I can cite to explain this to the angry manager? I normally wouldn't bother, but he said he'd buy every ump a beer if I could prove we got it right lol
So after several responses, do you feel like any sort of rule has been identified that could help your umpires get a beer?
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Today, 09:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
So after several responses, do you feel like any sort of rule has been identified that could help your umpires get a beer?
Not that would convince this guy. I left out his accusations of "bush league" hurled at my partner and I
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