live ball appeal

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I went back to check on tag-up responsibilities. I apparently defaulted to the NFHS version of this mechanic. In ASA, the BU does indeed have both runners when they're on first and second.

So at some point be it clinic or actual practice and in pre-gaming, (collective) we always give the responsibility of the lead runner to PU.

Re-learning the ASA method, I'll have to decide whether to introduce this to our umpire group. I think we've all become accustomed to the NFHS version (and not all our guys work HS ball).

Oh, there's more to it than that; ASA mechanics differ in this case between fastpitch and slowpitch!! The mantra of "we do everything for consistency, even if it's not as good" changes this mechanic between the two games.

ASA Slowpitch (and NCAA, interestingly); BU has tag responsibility for both runners on 1st and 2nd, PU has no tag, lead runner to third.

ASA Fastpitch (and NFHS); PU has tag on 2nd, and that runner to third, BU has tag at 1st, any play at 1st or 2nd, last runner to 3rd.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Oh, there's more to it than that; ASA mechanics differ in this case between fastpitch and slowpitch!! The mantra of "we do everything for consistency, even if it's not as good" changes this mechanic between the two games.

ASA Slowpitch (and NCAA, interestingly); BU has tag responsibility for both runners on 1st and 2nd, PU has no tag, lead runner to third.

ASA Fastpitch (and NFHS); PU has tag on 2nd, and that runner to third, BU has tag at 1st, any play at 1st or 2nd, last runner to 3rd.

My thinking is that it would be easier for BU to take tag responsibility for both runners in the FP game since moving in from "C" sorta has both runners in the ump's field of vision. Taking both from "B" requires some serious head-swiveling. (Yes, primary responsibility is the runner from second but can't totally ignore runner at first.)

Now that we've straightened the tag responsibilities out, I'd like to go back to my question on the live ball appeal. This would apply only to the situation in the FP game.

With runners on first and second and less than 2 outs, who should make the live ball appeal call on a runner leaving too early at second base?

The mechanic says the PU is responsible for the tag up on the runner on 2B.

And it also says the BU is responsible for any play at 2B.

On the line drive in the infield, I think 99% of BUs make that call. But on the play in the outfield, with a collision and a possible dropped ball, who takes it and how quickly? BU should be watching runner from first and BR.

When the defense quickly gets the ball in and appeals the runner from 2B left early, should the PU immediately make that call? My concern is that 2 umpires are left looking at each other waiting for the other to make the call - even if pre-gamed.

[Andy]

The umpire that has tag-up responsibility should be the umpire that is making any appeal call at that base.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Andy

The umpire that has tag-up responsibility should be the umpire that is making any appeal call at that base.

So in a FP game w/ runners on first and second and no outs, batter hits a line drive to F1 who catches it and throws to F4 to double up the runner off second base.

You claim that PU makes the call on the catch AND the live ball appeal at second base?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

So in a FP game w/ runners on first and second and no outs, batter hits a line drive to F1 who catches it and throws to F4 to double up the runner off second base.

You claim that PU makes the call on the catch AND the live ball appeal at second base?

Without regard to how it should be done, isn't that what the book says?

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by youngump

Without regard to how it should be done, isn't that what the book says?

Tru has raised an excellent point. R1 and R2, base umpire in the C position behind F6. On an caught infield line drive where the runners have left the base before the batted ball is touched, the book says the PU makes the call at 2B? I assure you this gets called by every BU partner I've ever worked with. Semi-applicable MLB video example: Bryant's line-drive double play | MLB.com

While this IS a live-ball appeal, it's not a "tag-up & advance" appeal, which is probably what Andy was referring to.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Tru has raised an excellent point. R1 and R2, base umpire in the C position behind F6. On an caught infield line drive where the runners have left the base before the batted ball is touched, the book says the PU makes the call at 2B? I assure you this gets called by every BU partner I've ever worked with. Semi-applicable MLB video example: Bryant's line-drive double play | MLB.com

While this IS a live-ball appeal, it's not a "tag-up & advance" appeal, which is probably what Andy was referring to.

I pregame out of this for the call at third. Never even thought of the call at 2nd mattering. I tried to pre-game out of this with our UIC and she told me I should just go with the assignments in the book.

But take this a step further, if you are following the book and the appeal is executed by tagging the runner while off the bag. Whose call? It's indistinguishable from the first play. (It's an out whether an appeal or not.)

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Oh, there's more to it than that; ASA mechanics differ in this case between fastpitch and slowpitch!! The mantra of "we do everything for consistency, even if it's not as good" changes this mechanic between the two games.

ASA Slowpitch (and NCAA, interestingly); BU has tag responsibility for both runners on 1st and 2nd, PU has no tag, lead runner to third.

ASA Fastpitch (and NFHS); PU has tag on 2nd, and that runner to third, BU has tag at 1st, any play at 1st or 2nd, last runner to 3rd.

Apparently this has been changed in the 2017 USA Umpire Manual. It's noted on page 66, under the fly ball coverage. PU now has tag up at 2B. That section is in grey highlight so they did indicate that this is a change.

Nice. I think this makes more sense.