The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 28, 2001, 10:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 549
Question

SIT: R1 on 1st B2 hits deep fly to left which is caught by F7 R1 goes to 2nd but has left 1st to soon the throw comes into F6 who goes over to R1 and touches him with his glove and ball is in glove.

Question: at this point the umpire should gave the safe call until a verbal communication is given by F6 that the tag is for an appeal that the runner left 1st early. Correct?


Understand in dead ball situation a verbal communication must be gaven by a coach,manager or any fielder.

Question #2 does this require the coach or manager to come out of the dugout or can he just yell it from the dugout??


Thanks


Don
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 28, 2001, 10:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: north central Pa
Posts: 2,360
Don,
By tagging R1, you've got your live ball appeal - R1 is out. I think you've got ASA's rule book, so read the Points of Emphasis (POE). The very first one deals with appeals.

The dead ball appeal can be made by any infielder - coach, manager, outfielder, bench player cannot make an appeal cuz they aren't infielders. If a bench person or outfielder hollers about a missed base or one left too soon and the infielders do not pick up on this and make the appeal, I am likely to turn to the closest infielder (pitcher & catcher included) and ask what that person is hollering. When the infielder tells me that so & so sez R1 left too soon, I have an infielder making the appeal.
__________________
Steve M
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 28, 2001, 10:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,560
Steve has covered the "dead ball" part of this. During a live ball appeal, there must be an indication of some type for the umpire to define the action.

For example, if a runner missed a base or left it too soon on a caught fly ball, the throw comes to an infielder who turns and trips over the bag is not an appeal. However, if the infielder runs to the base and calls for the ball and stretches like a first baseman, she is doing this for a reason. Same thing with a fielder getting the ball, sprinting over and tagging a runner. She is doing it for a purpose.

The key here is that the umpire knows what is going on through some sort of definitive action by the fielder. If this happens, do not call the runner safe or just stand there. Just ask, "What are you doing?" and the player will undoubtedly give you a verbal appeal. And remember, the appeal is effected when the action takes place, not when a verbal is given.

__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 01, 2001, 12:03am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 549
Just a couple more questions on this to fully clarify.

If I understand Mike correctly and we change this SIT: up just a little.

SIT: R1 on 3rd, R2 on 1st one out B4 hits the pop-out to F7 R2 has left early R1 has done a proper tag-up the ball comes into F6 who goes over and tags R2 standing on 2nd but before a verbal appeal on R2 R1 crosses home.

Run would not count because of the action taking place before the runner scored but after the actual verbal given?

Other question in rule book under POE#1 and rule 8-8 on appeal it does not mention anywhere the right or how a manager or coach can make the dead ball appeal it only mentions the infielders??

Also by actually asking the fielder what an outfielder or person in the dugout is yelling aren't we tipping off the infielder to ask for the appeal putting the offense in an uneven circumstance on this is it not the fielder responibility to know this and for us to keep quiet until properly appealed.


Thank-you

Don
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 01, 2001, 10:05am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 517
Oppool,

I'm goint to confuse you a bit. The following applies to Fed softball only.

The 2001 rule book has a very glaring inconsistancy.

In 8-2-3 the rule requires infielders to make a live ball appeal and allows any fielder to make a dead ball appeal.

In the "Appeal Proceedures & Guidelines" any fielder may make a live ball appeal and requires infielders to make a dead ball appeal.

As you can see, they are exactly the opposite. I requested a ruling on this from the NC Supervisor of Officials, and received an e-male from his staff stating we were to accecpt appeals, either live or dead, from ANY FIELDER. Mr. Knoxx restated this position at the State Softball Clinic in person. You might want to check with your booking agent or state office to see how it will be handled in your state.

The other points I would remind you of are that the appeal cannot be made by a coach or manager, and that an appeal must be unmistakable. (Steve has said if a player holds a ball on a missed base and grunts that he deams that unmistakabel. Remember you can't make any money calling safe and ball, just outs and strikes.(big G)

As others have stated live ball appeals are usually obvious. We have accepted live ball appeals for left too soon bases and missed bases for years in Fed ball. (A lot of umpires and coaches just don't seem to understand that) This years differences are that we make no call at the end of playing action unless a proper appeal is made, and we no longer recgonize the "accidential appeal" (ie: the above tripping over the base or the catching of a late throw at 1st when the BR missed the bag.)

One last point on scoring: Remember a base left too soon is not a force play. The score decision is a time play, and as in any time play the point of reference would be the actual tag/put out, not the announcement of the out call.

Hope this helps.

Roger Greene,
Member UT
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 01, 2001, 11:36am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: north central Pa
Posts: 2,360
Don asked that if by using my suggestion of turning to an infielder and asking what it was that the coach or other non-infielder was saying that we'll "give away" the fact that an appeal is coming. If all coaches are like the ones here, I can hear them perfectly well when they say that somebody missed a base - and so can everyone in the next several towns. So, no, this does not give the defense any kind of a break. All it does is keep me from having to explain to the teams that only an infielder can appeal. And after the inning is over, I will approach that coach and let him/her know that I had to get that appeal from an infielder. That's a good question, hope this makes it clear for ASA - see Roger's comments for NFHS. I had not noticed that problem in the NFHS books, so I'm going to have to make sure that we talk about that one Monday at our chapter get together.
__________________
Steve M
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 01, 2001, 10:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,560
Roger,

In the Maryland NFHS Umpire's Clinic they pointed out the error in the wording of the rules and explained that this was a typo and we were to call the rule as it should have been written which is that only an INfielder may make a dead ball appeal. The clinician claimed to bring this directly from Indianapolis.

Delaware has their NFHS Umpire's Clinic this Monday evening, so if I hear anything different, I'll let everyone know.

Don,

That is exactly what I meant. The act which constitutes the appeal is what is important in relation to scoring any runs on a third out.

A perfect example of this was in a Player's Invitational (?) tournament game in Providence RI a few years ago. My team, the IrishMafia, had a runner dead out at second in the 12th or 13th inning. The runner had just rounded third when the play occured. However, the blue waited for the dust to clear and asked to see the ball. By the time the SS showed him the ball, the runner crossed the plate. The BU declared the runner out at second and the PU allowed the run to end the game. I must have argued for more than 5 minutes and the only response I got from the PU was, "How am I supposed to know the runner was out until he called it?"

Well, that game took us out of the Championship round and we never made another trip to RI.

But the point is that it is the play, not the blue's right arm which determines the timing of the out call.

__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:01pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1