live ball appeal?

[umpharp]

Here is the play. ASA rules Mens Modified game

1 out with R1 on 3rd, R2 on 2nd, and R3 on 1st. Batter hits ground ball to F6 playing close to 2nd. F6 throws home (Why he didn't do the easy thing here and touch second? Who knows?) So F6 throws home and makes a bad throw that bounces off of the backstop. R1 scores but misses home plate. R2 rounds 3rd and starts towards home. F2 retrieves the ball and runs toward third forcing R2 back to third. F2 steps on home while doing this. Is that a live ball appeal on R1?
F2 has no idea that R1 missed home and did not step on home on purpose, but did clearly step on home while forcing R2 back to third.
F2 then throws to F5 and catch R2 in a rundown. R2 is tagged out after two throws.
Do we have three outs, end of inning. Or 2 outs and two on base.

Thanks.

[WestMichBlue]

Is that a live ball appeal on R1?

Perhaps the better question: "is that a non-verbal appeal?" Live ball appeals can be either verbal or non-verbal. Dead ball appeals, by nature, are verbal.

A non-verbal appeal occurs when the action on the field is so obvious that everyone in the park knows that the play is being appealed. Classic play occurs when runner is off on contact, followed by fantastic catch, followed by runner scrambling to get back, defender calling for the ball, and the throw to the base left early.

Yours was not obviously a non-verbal appeal. It is better described as an "accidental appeal" and we do not recognize accidental appeals.

WMB

[CecilOne]

Agree, the key is "F2 has no idea that R1 missed home and did not step on home on purpose", so it is not an appeal, just an occurrence, as WMB said. Even if F2 knew it and touched HP "on purpose", it still isn't obviously an appeal.

[debeau]

I disagree with the "classic appeal"
throwing back to a base on a runner who has left early on a caught fly ball .
Had a tournament today ( 5 plates in 30 degree heat )
Each game had that happen and we didnt call it out
not once was another question asked and after the game I explained the rule and the answer was .
"we thought it was a force and the out is automatic "
To me , in my humble opinion , just throwing back to a base is not an appeal, I have got to know what the appeal is for .
Its like asking , blue the runner missed the base , sfter running 3 bases .Do we call them out .
No we ask which base .
I have got to know that the player knows that it is an appeal. not an automatic out .

[whiskers_ump]

In my HO, you lost 5 outs, and remember, JMHO.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by debeau
I disagree with the "classic appeal"
throwing back to a base on a runner who has left early on a caught fly ball .
Had a tournament today ( 5 plates in 30 degree heat )
Each game had that happen and we didnt call it out
not once was another question asked and after the game I explained the rule and the answer was .
"we thought it was a force and the out is automatic "
To me , in my humble opinion , just throwing back to a base is not an appeal, I have got to know what the appeal is for .
Its like asking , blue the runner missed the base , sfter running 3 bases .Do we call them out .
No we ask which base .
I have got to know that the player knows that it is an appeal. not an automatic out .

But "runner scrambling to get back, defender calling for the ball" makes it different.

[debeau]

Whats HO or JMHO .Humble opinion?
I can see both points of view but whats the definition of an appeal !
CecilOne
Possibly I can see an appeal in that but I have to know that the player knows it is an appeal and not a "force"
It could well be players and coaches in the USA are more knowledgable about the rules .
Maybe next time , after a game you could ask them , just the same as I did .
I emphasise , they had no clue it was an appeal and all thought it was an automatic out .

[Edited by debeau on Feb 12th, 2006 at 12:53 PM]

[whiskers_ump]

Whats HO or JMHO .Humble opinion?

Humble opinion and just my humble opinion.

[WestMichBlue]

You are right debau; the players do not know it is an appeal; the coaches don't know, and, honestly a lot of umpires don't know. They all use the words "force out" and assume that it is an automatic call.

BUT - by rule, leaving the base early is an appeal play, and umpires cannot make any call until appealed by a player. OK, so the players don't know it is technically an appeal, but they do know they can get an out and they are scrambling to get the ball back to the base - and the runner knows that he can be called out and he is scrambling to get back. All that highly visible activity is telling an umpire that the defense is appealing - even though they don't know it!

So what are you going to do if the ball beats the runner back? Call safe because the players are too dumb to know the right words? In the heated discussion sure to follow eventually it will come out that they did not follow the appeal process correctly. At which time they will tell you they want to appeal and you have to honor it because the ball did get back first. So we excuse their dumbness and go ahead and give them the out automatically.

However, a fielder tripping over a base missed or left early by a previous runner does not get the call. In the first play the defenders knew what they were doing, even if they didn't know what to call it. In the second case, the fielder was just clumsy and had no clue the base was missed or left early. That would be an accidental appeal and we will not honor it.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

Trust me, a throw to a base which a runner has left early on a caught fly ball is not done in silence.

You will always hear the words (not necessarily in order):

Throw the ball to ______ (fill in appropriate base)
S/he left early

The book requires a request by A player, A manager or A coach. It does not require this request necessarily come from the individual catching the ball or throwing the ball.

It is not a force, but if I as the umpire know why the defense is going through this exercise, that is a valid appeal.

[tzme415]

At what point did this cease to be a force and need to be appealed? Did it happen once R1 passed home? If this is true, does it also hold true for non-force situations? For example, R1 on 3B tags up legally on a fly ball and slides around the catcher to avoid the tag, but misses home on the way by....rather than going to tag R1 could the catcher touch home and appeal the missed base or is this only allowed as a dead-ball appeal? I should know this, but the nuance of the rule escapes me.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Yes, yes, and yes. Remember that a runner who passes a base is presumed to have touched it; until and unless there is an appeal. So, the force play is over when the runner passes the base, as is a non-force play. In both cases, an appeal must be made; either live ball with the ball (which, as stated above, can be non-verbal ONLY if it is clear the intent of the play, or dead ball appeal, where any infielder, including pitcher and catcher, must verbalize an appeal, but does not require the ball.

NOTE: add for NFHS and NCAA that the coach can also make a dead ball appeal; it is not required that an infielder repeat the coach's statement, where it is in ASA.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by tzme415
At what point did this cease to be a force and need to be appealed? Did it happen once R1 passed home? If this is true, does it also hold true for non-force situations? For example, R1 on 3B tags up legally on a fly ball and slides around the catcher to avoid the tag, but misses home on the way by....rather than going to tag R1 could the catcher touch home and appeal the missed base or is this only allowed as a dead-ball appeal? I should know this, but the nuance of the rule escapes me.

To answer your original question, as long as I've known.

Get your ASA book and check out the definition of "force out". For a player to be "forced" the batter must become the batter-runner. The force is only removed from a runner when the BR or a trailing runner is put out.

So, it is impossible to have a "force out" on any fly ball/line drive that is caught as that removes the force of all runners on base.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Oops. I only half read the question, without relating it to the actual thread. I am in complete agreement with Mike; this play was never a force play, it was a timing play. The player is required to return, and it is a timing play back to the base. In a rhtorical sense of "when does a force end?", it ends when a player forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner reaches or passes the next base; regardless if s/he actually touches it. That is the question I thought I was answering.

Mike, you had a clean shot, and passed. You must be mellowing, my friend.

[debeau]

Mike
Yes that scenario I would consider an appeal as long , of course the player is in the infield.
But , with no verbals, no indication except the throw .
This appeal should be removed and the out an automatic