live ball appeal

[Tru_in_Blu]

ASA slow pitch game, 2 umpires. I am on the bases.

Runners on first and second, no outs.

Batter hit a line drive to fairly deep right-center where 2 outfielders converged.

As I started to come inside the diamond, I glanced at the runner at first base who was not holding and starting to advance.

I took a look at the outfielders and saw a slight collision between the fielders, with one of them making a catch, falling to the ground, and then holding the ball up in his glove showing that he made a catch.

At this point, the runner from first was about half-way to second base. As I turned, I noticed that the runner from second base was about 20 feet off the base and had started to run towards third base.

Infielders called for the ball to be thrown to second base. As the relay was coming in, the runner from second base proceeded to go home and no throw was made there. An infielder took the throw from the outfielder and stepped on second base for a live ball appeal.

I was about 15 feet away from second base inside the diamond. I called the runner out.

Offense coach asked if I could check w/ my partner claiming the runner from second had tagged up. We got together and I asked PU if he saw the runner tag up. He stated that his focus was on the play in the outfield and the collision and to make sure there was a catch. He said he only saw the runner from second in his peripheral vision, but thought that he had tagged up, but wasn't 100% sure. So I changed my initial call to safe, and the run counted.

Now to my thoughts and questions:

On tag ups, I'm clear that PU has lead runner and BU has trail runner(s). I buttonhooked inside counter-clockwise to have a view of the runner at first base. When I had completed the roughly 180 degree turn, I picked up the runner from second out of the corner of my eye.

When the live ball appeal was made, I made the call. Was this the proper protocol/mechanic? If it was a line drive to F6 and then a throw to F4 for a double play I'd have no doubts about making this call. Certainly, I wouldn't defer to PU to make that call.

But when asked to check with my partner, I was thinking that the runner at second base was the PU's responsibility. As such, I thought it proper to allow his opinion to decide the play. As a result, I changed my original call.

I was perhaps 60% certain that the runner had not tagged up given where he was when I turned from viewing the catch. I'm not sure what percentage of certainty the PU had only that he wasn't 100% sure.

Was I correct in deferring to his opinion?

[BlueDevilRef]

Never guess an out and never take that initial call. The live ball appeal was your partners call and he should have lined it up to get a view of the catch and the lead runner tag.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Never guess an out and never take that initial call. The live ball appeal was your partners call and he should have lined it up to get a view of the catch and the lead runner tag.

And this would also be true on the line drive catch by F6 flipping to F4 for a DP with runners on first and second?

[jmkupka]

Good question, and one that'll send this thread on a tangent.
I'm in C, shoestring liner to F4. It hits bottom and bounces up into the glove. Since I'm at 90 degrees to the batted ball (and PU is straightlined), I clearly see that there was leather under the ball when it hit. PU signals no catch.

The different versions of chaos that can happen here are numerous. Runners (knowing it was caught) don't run, but then are called out when forced. F6 (thinking doubling R1 off 2B) only gets one out, etc.

What is the mechanic here?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

ASA slow pitch game, 2 umpires. I am on the bases.

Runners on first and second, no outs.

Batter hit a line drive to fairly deep right-center where 2 outfielders converged.

As I started to come inside the diamond, I glanced at the runner at first base who was not holding and starting to advance.

I took a look at the outfielders and saw a slight collision between the fielders, with one of them making a catch, falling to the ground, and then holding the ball up in his glove showing that he made a catch.

At this point, the runner from first was about half-way to second base. As I turned, I noticed that the runner from second base was about 20 feet off the base and had started to run towards third base.

Infielders called for the ball to be thrown to second base. As the relay was coming in, the runner from second base proceeded to go home and no throw was made there. An infielder took the throw from the outfielder and stepped on second base for a live ball appeal.

I was about 15 feet away from second base inside the diamond. I called the runner out.

Offense coach asked if I could check w/ my partner claiming the runner from second had tagged up. We got together and I asked PU if he saw the runner tag up. He stated that his focus was on the play in the outfield and the collision and to make sure there was a catch. He said he only saw the runner from second in his peripheral vision, but thought that he had tagged up, but wasn't 100% sure. So I changed my initial call to safe, and the run counted.

Now to my thoughts and questions:

On tag ups, I'm clear that PU has lead runner and BU has trail runner(s). I buttonhooked inside counter-clockwise to have a view of the runner at first base. When I had completed the roughly 180 degree turn, I picked up the runner from second out of the corner of my eye.

When the live ball appeal was made, I made the call. Was this the proper protocol/mechanic? If it was a line drive to F6 and then a throw to F4 for a double play I'd have no doubts about making this call. Certainly, I wouldn't defer to PU to make that call.

But when asked to check with my partner, I was thinking that the runner at second base was the PU's responsibility. As such, I thought it proper to allow his opinion to decide the play. As a result, I changed my original call.

I was perhaps 60% certain that the runner had not tagged up given where he was when I turned from viewing the catch. I'm not sure what percentage of certainty the PU had only that he wasn't 100% sure.

Was I correct in deferring to his opinion?

Actually, BU is responsible for both runners in this case. Your priority should be R1 (lead runner). The moment you saw the ball reach the glove (remember, the catch is not your priority here), you should glance at 2nd then 1st to check the runners. I know it can be difficult coming inside and watch the ball at the same time, but you need to be aware of the location of a ball in flight.

If unsure, it never hurts to check with your partner. Even though the PU has the ball, s/he could still help with the runners' actions prior to the event in the OF and offer some insight there.

[BlueDevilRef]

No. This one would be right in front of you. I said in "that" call in the OP. If you are hooking in, you don't have a view on it. Your partner should have.

Not sure which way you turned but I learned long ago, when I am in C with a ball hit to right side of outfield, I open up to that side as I hook, so in the original OP, I would have had a view of both runners and catch. I only learned to do that after working with a few guys would never watch either tag there bc "it was easier for me to see it".

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Not sure which way you turned but I learned long ago, when I am in C with a ball hit to right side of outfield, I open up to that side as I hook, so in the original OP, I would have had a view of both runners and catch. I only learned to do that after working with a few guys would never watch either tag there bc "it was easier for me to see it".

I stated that I came inside and buttonhooked counter-clockwise. For the uninitiated, that would be turning towards my left to focus on the runner at first.

If you're in "C" for a slow pitch game, you'll need to review your mechanics.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Actually, BU is responsible for both runners in this case. Your priority should be R1 (lead runner). The moment you saw the ball reach the glove (remember, the catch is not your priority here), you should glance at 2nd then 1st to check the runners. I know it can be difficult coming inside and watch the ball at the same time, but you need to be aware of the location of a ball in flight.

If unsure, it never hurts to check with your partner. Even though the PU has the ball, s/he could still help with the runners' actions prior to the event in the OF and offer some insight there.

I went back to check on tag-up responsibilities. I apparently defaulted to the NFHS version of this mechanic. In ASA, the BU does indeed have both runners when they're on first and second.

So at some point be it clinic or actual practice and in pre-gaming, (collective) we always give the responsibility of the lead runner to PU.

Re-learning the ASA method, I'll have to decide whether to introduce this to our umpire group. I think we've all become accustomed to the NFHS version (and not all our guys work HS ball).

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I went back to check on tag-up responsibilities. I apparently defaulted to the NFHS version of this mechanic. In ASA, the BU does indeed have both runners when they're on first and second.

So at some point be it clinic or actual practice and in pre-gaming, (collective) we always give the responsibility of the lead runner to PU.

Re-learning the ASA method, I'll have to decide whether to introduce this to our umpire group. I think we've all become accustomed to the NFHS version (and not all our guys work HS ball).

Oh, there's more to it than that; ASA mechanics differ in this case between fastpitch and slowpitch!! The mantra of "we do everything for consistency, even if it's not as good" changes this mechanic between the two games.

ASA Slowpitch (and NCAA, interestingly); BU has tag responsibility for both runners on 1st and 2nd, PU has no tag, lead runner to third.

ASA Fastpitch (and NFHS); PU has tag on 2nd, and that runner to third, BU has tag at 1st, any play at 1st or 2nd, last runner to 3rd.

[BlueDevilRef]

My bad. I totally spaced that this was slow pitch. I've never had a partner in working slo pitch but I've only ever done old man church league stuff that wasn't sanctioned by a governing body.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I went back to check on tag-up responsibilities. I apparently defaulted to the NFHS version of this mechanic. In ASA, the BU does indeed have both runners when they're on first and second.

So at some point be it clinic or actual practice and in pre-gaming, (collective) we always give the responsibility of the lead runner to PU.

Re-learning the ASA method, I'll have to decide whether to introduce this to our umpire group. I think we've all become accustomed to the NFHS version (and not all our guys work HS ball).

Only problem with changing up mechanics locally is that if you have someone from your group travel outside your area, they are going to have to remember the real mechanics.

I know that to some UICs, one of the worst things you can start an explanation with are, "Well, at home we....."

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I went back to check on tag-up responsibilities. I apparently defaulted to the NFHS version of this mechanic. In ASA, the BU does indeed have both runners when they're on first and second.

So at some point be it clinic or actual practice and in pre-gaming, (collective) we always give the responsibility of the lead runner to PU.

Re-learning the ASA method, I'll have to decide whether to introduce this to our umpire group. I think we've all become accustomed to the NFHS version (and not all our guys work HS ball).

AFAIK, NFHS and ASA fast pitch are the same mechanics.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Oh, there's more to it than that; ASA mechanics differ in this case between fastpitch and slowpitch!! The mantra of "we do everything for consistency, even if it's not as good" changes this mechanic between the two games.

ASA Slowpitch (and NCAA, interestingly); BU has tag responsibility for both runners on 1st and 2nd, PU has no tag, lead runner to third.

ASA Fastpitch (and NFHS); PU has tag on 2nd, and that runner to third, BU has tag at 1st, any play at 1st or 2nd, last runner to 3rd.

My thinking is that it would be easier for BU to take tag responsibility for both runners in the FP game since moving in from "C" sorta has both runners in the ump's field of vision. Taking both from "B" requires some serious head-swiveling. (Yes, primary responsibility is the runner from second but can't totally ignore runner at first.)

Now that we've straightened the tag responsibilities out, I'd like to go back to my question on the live ball appeal. This would apply only to the situation in the FP game.

With runners on first and second and less than 2 outs, who should make the live ball appeal call on a runner leaving too early at second base?

The mechanic says the PU is responsible for the tag up on the runner on 2B.

And it also says the BU is responsible for any play at 2B.

On the line drive in the infield, I think 99% of BUs make that call. But on the play in the outfield, with a collision and a possible dropped ball, who takes it and how quickly? BU should be watching runner from first and BR.

When the defense quickly gets the ball in and appeals the runner from 2B left early, should the PU immediately make that call? My concern is that 2 umpires are left looking at each other waiting for the other to make the call - even if pre-gamed.

[Andy]

The umpire that has tag-up responsibility should be the umpire that is making any appeal call at that base.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Andy

The umpire that has tag-up responsibility should be the umpire that is making any appeal call at that base.

So in a FP game w/ runners on first and second and no outs, batter hits a line drive to F1 who catches it and throws to F4 to double up the runner off second base.

You claim that PU makes the call on the catch AND the live ball appeal at second base?