Live ball appeal

[BuggBob]

R1 on third, no outs, ball hit to and caught by F7, R1 tags and runs home, F7 makes a good throw and F2 a good catch. With the ball in her glove F2 step onto the plate, totally and completely blocking all access to the plate, R1 runs past and completely misses the plate; F2 does not attempt to tag R1. I make a safe call. While still standing on the plate F2 appeals runner missing the plate, R1 now slides into the plate from the First base side, again no tag is attempted. I step up and rule the runner out for missing the plate and the defense properly appealing, I actually give a good explanation for all to hear. “The Runner did not touch home plate, before the runner returned to touch the plate, the catcher in possession of the ball, made a proper live ball appeal – the Runner is ruled out.” Of course, one team is happy, one team is not – the game (and life) continue.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by BuggBob

R1 on third, no outs, ball hit to and caught by F7, R1 tags and runs home, F7 makes a good throw and F2 a good catch. With the ball in her glove F2 step onto the plate, totally and completely blocking all access to the plate, R1 runs past and completely misses the plate; F2 does not attempt to tag R1. I make a safe call. While still standing on the plate F2 appeals runner missing the plate, R1 now slides into the plate from the First base side, again no tag is attempted. I step up and rule the runner out for missing the plate and the defense properly appealing, I actually give a good explanation for all to hear. “The Runner did not touch home plate, before the runner returned to touch the plate, the catcher in possession of the ball, made a proper live ball appeal – the Runner is ruled out.” Of course, one team is happy, one team is not – the game (and life) continue.

Curiousity - given your description - did you have obstruction?

[BretMan]

Doesn't sound like an obstruction issue. What I'm getting from the description is that F2 first had the ball, then moved to the plate to block access.

One question: If there was no tag attempt, why did you give a safe signal?

[txtrooper]

We should hesitate on the safe call in this situation, although I am guilty of not hesitating long enough on calls. Making the safe call too early makes it harder for us to sell the out, if a proper appeal is made. I believe that ultimately getting it right is the right thing to do, even if we have to eat a little crow for it. Sounds like you made a right call to me.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

We should hesitate on the safe call in this situation, although I am guilty of not hesitating long enough on calls. Making the safe call too early makes it harder for us to sell the out, if a proper appeal is made. I believe that ultimately getting it right is the right thing to do, even if we have to eat a little crow for it. Sounds like you made a right call to me.

I disagree on the "sell" part. I do agree some should hesitate longer, but it is actually the players who determine, or should determine, how long it should be.

If both are still active in the play, no call should be made. However, when neither take action to continue with an attempt to touch the plate or tag the runner, the call should be made.

However, there is no need to sell anything. Either the appeal is proper and timely or it is not.

[robbie]

Does ASA (or other rule sets) specifically address missing home plate? (as opposed to missing another base?)

NSA does, and as I read it, the play in this post would result in runner SAFE, no appeal available since runner was attempting to reach the plate.

Rule 8, Section 8 The baserunner is out: j. In running or sliding for home plate, he / she fails to touch home plate and makes no attempt to return to the base, when a fielder holds the ball in his / her hands while touching home plate and appeals to the umpire for a decision.
(the bold added by me)

I read this to imply that if the runner is trying to get to the plate, a tag must be made. We have all seen (even in a MLB baseball game) plays where the runner coming home misses the plate. The catcher will always reach to make a tag. If an appeal were available, F2 would simple holler "appeal missed plate" and would get the out.

Thoughts?

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Curiousity - given your description - did you have obstruction?

Why would you even consider that?

[txump81]

7.10(d) the runner fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged; NOTE: A runner forfeits his/her opportunity to return to home base when he/she enters the dugout or any other dead ball area on their way to the bench or dugout.

The way I read the OP, the runner should be safe as they were attempting to return and therefore must be tagged.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by SRW

Why would you even consider that?

'Cuz after a few cold cans, I did not read it clearly.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

We should hesitate on the safe call in this situation...

Agree that it is the proper procedure when the runner misses the plate and the fielder misses the tag. In that case, our safe signal is a ruling on the tag attempt.

Bugg clearly states that there was no tag attempt made by the catcher. Thus, there is nothing to signal.

Interesting point and question about how NSA might handle this play. You guys that work baseball would be familiar with that. There, if the runner is actively scrambling back to touch the plate (or, first base after overrunning it, for that matter) an actual tag is required. You can't get the out just by stepping on the plate with the ball unless the runner is making no attempt to come back and touch.

[greymule]

"Does ASA (or other rule sets) specifically address missing home plate?"

ASA gives a case play in which F2, touching home plate, appeals immediately after a runner misses home. The ruling is that the runner is out. ASA allows immediate appeals at all bases and has no "vicinity of the base" or "attempting to return" stipulations.

However, that case play is actually presented to make a different point, which I can't remember offhand. Something to do with a successful appeal of home having some effect on other runners. Still, the example of the successful appeal is helpful.

The fact that NSA specifies and makes no attempt to return leads me to believe that they would call it as in OBR: if the runner is in the vicinity and scrambling back to the plate, it's too soon for an appeal, and F2 would have to tag the runner.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Curiousity - given your description - did you have obstruction?

This CAN NOT be obstruction. OP made the right call.

[txtrooper]

I said sell, but meant to change the call once a safe signal is given.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Steve M

'Cuz after a few cold cans, I did not read it clearly.

I'll accept that reason. :P

[MigoP]

NFHS. Rule 2.1,Art. 9. "If a runner misses home plate and the catcher misses the tag, the umpire should hesitate slightly. If no tag is made, the umpire should declare the runner safe. If an appeal play is then made by tagging either the runner or home plate, the umpire should then make a decision on this appeal play."
In OBR rules, you make no calls. This is an appeal play. If the runner is heading towards his dugout area, the catcher is not required to chase him for the tag. We grant the appeal if the catcher steps on the plate and asks for appeal.