ASA - Batter/Runner touches 1st thinks ball is dropped and heads towards dugout

[hohlernr]

This play caused quite the controversy tonight:

Runners on 1st and 2nd, batter hits flyball to centerfield. Centerfielder dives towards the fence and just barely misses the ball. At this point the batter/runner has run though 1st base and thinks the ball is caught and heads towards the dugout.

The batter/runner never leaves the field, but ends up near the 1st base dugout before he realizes what happens. By that time the ball makes it in the infield and first base is touched and the runner is tagged (for good measure). All hell breaks lose after this as the umps have no idea what to call. They eventually agree that since he never made an attempt for second, he's basically free to do what he wants and is safe at first. I vehemently disagreed, but to no avail.

I can't find a clear ruling in the rule book, what was the proper call?

Thanks!

[youngump]

Originally Posted by hohlernr

This play caused quite the controversy tonight:

Runners on 1st and 2nd, batter hits flyball to centerfield. Centerfielder dives towards the fence and just barely misses the ball. At this point the batter/runner has run though 1st base and thinks the ball is caught and heads towards the dugout.

The batter/runner never leaves the field, but ends up near the 1st base dugout before he realizes what happens. By that time the ball makes it in the infield and first base is touched and the runner is tagged (for good measure). All hell breaks lose after this as the umps have no idea what to call. They eventually agree that since he never made an attempt for second, he's basically free to do what he wants and is safe at first. I vehemently disagreed, but to no avail.

I can't find a clear ruling in the rule book, what was the proper call?

Thanks!

It depends a little on how you acted when you vehemently disagreed. If you were reasonable and took no for an answer then no ejection. If you lost it, then you had to go. ;-)
Seriously though, you're asking about how the protest you lodged will be ruled on? (K, that was less than serious but I do hope you protested.)
On the actual serious front the rules require a BR who overruns first to return immediately to the base. It doesn't sound like that's what happened, though immediate is in the judgment of the umpire. Since he didn't return to first he's subject to be called out on appeal which you did.

[teebob21]

The runner is out if he enters the dugout (8-7-U, paraphrased). Did he remain on the playing field?

Was he back on the base when he was tagged? If so, he's obviously not out no matter what happened before the tag (unless, as above, he entered the dugout). If he touched 1B, overran it, and was abandoning his attempt to advance or return directly to the base (8-8-I), he can be tagged out while off the base.

As a follow-up question to the rest of the umpires here: In this situation, if the ball is returned to 1B without a verbal appeal, would you rule on the live-ball appeal? For that matter, is there a live-ball appeal being properly made? (I say no, unless the defense tags the runner.)

Edit to add: I'm sure in the title you mean "runner thinks ball is caught" but we get it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

As a follow-up question to the rest of the umpires here: In this situation, if the ball is returned to 1B without a verbal appeal, would you rule on the live-ball appeal? For that matter, is there a live-ball appeal being properly made? (I say no, unless the defense tags the runner.)

This is not an appeal play. The runner must be tagged with a live ball prior to returning to the base safely

[Billyball]

If the batter stays on the field he is safe. Right call

[CecilOne]

If I read the OP correctly, the BR/R did not leave the field; but was tagged by a live ball while off the base and not returning directly. That is an out, if it is treated as an appeal.

We have discussed recognizing such a play as an appeal several times; which is the deciding factor in this case.
I would say it is; if the fielder(s) acted as if they were trying to catch the BR/R in a running violation.
If the fielder just tagged the BR/R haphazardly with no apparent intent; then it's back to a question of what constitutes an appeal.

BTW, the OP is very well done, clear and lacking useless embellishment.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If I read the OP correctly, the BR/R did not leave the field; but was tagged by a live ball while off the base and not returning directly. That is an out, if it is treated as an appeal.

We have discussed recognizing such a play as an appeal several times; which is the deciding factor in this case.
I would say it is; if the fielder(s) acted as if they were trying to catch the BR/R in a running violation.
If the fielder just tagged the BR/R haphazardly with no apparent intent; then it's back to a question of what constitutes an appeal.

BTW, the OP is very well done, clear and lacking useless embellishment.

Again, NOT an appeal.

[Andy]

All we have here is a play on an active runner.

From the OP, it sounds as if the BR hit the ball, advanced to first, then turned and headed toward the first base dugout thinking the ball had been caught. When he realized it hadn't, he returned to first base.

The look back rule doesn't come into play here (assuming this was a FP or modified game) and if it was a SP game, time had not been called as far as we know.

I acknowledge that there was a delay in the player returning to first base, but there was also a live ball. If there was no attempt to second base, there is no play to be had on the BR. The only appeal would be if he missed first base, which was not the case.

Sounds as if the umpires on the field got the call right. I'm curious as to the basis of your "vehement" disagreement.....

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Again, NOT an appeal.

So I've never quite understood why a BR overrunning first and turning toward second is considered an appeal. (It has to be executed by tagging the runner who would be out anyway.) But under what theory is that an appeal and going off to wander around foul territory is not. Just because that's literally what it says?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by youngump

So I've never quite understood why a BR overrunning first and turning toward second is considered an appeal. (It has to be executed by tagging the runner who would be out anyway.) But under what theory is that an appeal and going off to wander around foul territory is not. Just because that's literally what it says?

Yes!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Again, NOT an appeal.

Ok, if not advancing and did not miss the base.

Do you agree with this:
"On the actual serious front the rules require a BR who overruns first to return immediately to the base"?

[jmkupka]

That's only when the ball's in the circle (8.7.t)
And I don't think it's "immediately", just directly.
She can mosey on back, as long as she doesn't change her mind about where she's going.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Ok, if not advancing and did not miss the base.

Do you agree with this:
"On the actual serious front the rules require a BR who overruns first to return immediately to the base"?

Seems like we have discussed this before. While the book does say "immediately", there is no definition of what that means.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Billyball

If the batter stays on the field he is safe. Right call

Except that he was tagged out.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Seems like we have discussed this before. While the book does say "immediately", there is no definition of what that means.

And being extremely technical the rule merely says that the BR is not out if they return immediately. It says nothing about what happens if the BR doesn't unless they advance to second.