Clock Status?

[jtparker12]

Here is the situation, and this is one that has drawn a lot of discussion with some of my fellow officiating compadres:

For the sake of argument, we will say that it is 3rd Down and the distance doesn't matter. Team A, which will become K, has lined up in a field-goal formation, with the holder down on one knee 7-yards behind the snapper. The clock is running at this time because the last play was a running play that remained inbounds, and we will say that there are 2:00 left on the clock when the ball is snapped. The snap is errant, and the holder recovers it, lifting his knee to do so and then immediately placing it back to the ground, which is legal under 4-2-2a EXCEPTION 2 in NFHS rules. After he returns to the ground, he "pitches" a forward shuffle pass to a receiver who (a) catches the ball and runs for a touchdown, or (b) drops the forward shuffle pass. Under Rule 4-2-2, the ball is dead and the down is ended at the point that the holder "pitches" the forward shuffle pass, but what is the status of the clock in each of these situations?

Please make sure to cite the rule(s) and case(s) for each so that I can reference them for the future, and so that I can pass it along to my compadres for their clarity. Thanks so much!!

[BktBallRef]

The play is dead as soon as the holder pitches the ball. There's no incomplete pass, the play doesn't end OOB, there's nothing else that happens that causes the clock to stop. Therefore, it's 4th down and the clock continues to run.

The rules that cover when the clock starts/stops are found under Rule 4. I'm confident that you can find the exact rule reference that you need.

[jtparker12]

I agree that the clock should run at the end of 3rd Down too. Essentially, it is similar to the QB taking a knee at the end of the game to run the clock out, but my other colleagues view it differently. Some of them are under the impression that the clock should stop. That's why I was hoping to get a definitive rule citing or case book citing so that I can show them. I have scavenged the NFHS Rule and Case Books, and there is no definitive case book situation that spells it out, unless I am not looking in the right place. Instead, it is broken over different situations, which becomes somewhat confusing and arduous to decipher.

[bisonlj]

BBR has the right answer. The rules that discuss when the clock stops do not list this situation. So the clock keeps running. This is usually done on 4th down so the clock would stop because a new series is going to be awarded to team B/R. There also isn't a rule that says the clock will keep going if the runner is tackled in bounds on 2nd down.

[maven]

Originally Posted by jtparker12

I agree that the clock should run at the end of 3rd Down too. Essentially, it is similar to the QB taking a knee at the end of the game to run the clock out, but my other colleagues view it differently. Some of them are under the impression that the clock should stop. That's why I was hoping to get a definitive rule citing or case book citing so that I can show them.

You've got the right answer, and for the right reason: the holder made the ball dead in a way precisely analogous to a runner touching his knee to the ground. In that situation, the clock continues to run.

We don't have any rules that say, "the clock continues to run." The clock always runs until it is stopped. Your "colleagues" need to find a rule that stops the clock in this situation. Since there isn't one, they will owe you a beverage.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by maven

We don't have any rules that say, "the clock continues to run." The clock always runs until it is stopped. Your "colleagues" need to find a rule that stops the clock in this situation. Since there isn't one, they will owe you a beverage.

This, exactly.

I fail to see any reason that anyone would think the clock needs to stop. The ball-carrier's knee was down in bounds. That's all there is to this situation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jtparker12

I agree that the clock should run at the end of 3rd Down too. Essentially, it is similar to the QB taking a knee at the end of the game to run the clock out, but my other colleagues view it differently. Some of them are under the impression that the clock should stop. That's why I was hoping to get a definitive rule citing or case book citing so that I can show them. I have scavenged the NFHS Rule and Case Books, and there is no definitive case book situation that spells it out, unless I am not looking in the right place. Instead, it is broken over different situations, which becomes somewhat confusing and arduous to decipher.

The rule is written so that in the absence of certain conditions, the clock runs. If none of those conditions are met, the clock should run. The burden should be on those who claim it stops to give a rule reference.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by jtparker12

Please make sure to cite the rule(s) and case(s) for each so that I can reference them for the future, and so that I can pass it along to my compadres for their clarity. Thanks so much!!

I don't know if this will satisfy your doubting colleagues, but the EXCEPTION, that allows a holder to deal with a live ball while his knee is on the ground, is an exception to the basic rule, (NF: 4-2-2-a) which advises, "The ball becomes dead and and the down is ended: (a).....or allows anypart of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground".

So, when the exception is not applicable, the fact that the holder had possession of the ball while his knee was touching the ground satisfies
4-2-2, the instant the holder ceases to satisfy all the requirements of the "exception", he riverts to being a "runner" (NF: 2-32-13) with his knee touching the ground, causing the ball to become dead, which does NOT stop the clock.