Ball status

[Tru_in_Blu]

I'm still researching...

I found a case play from 2007. It reads:

PLAY 8.6-22
(FP and SP with stealing) With R1 on 1B, F2 drops the pitch and the plate umpire, in an effort to get out of the way, accidentally kicks the ball into the dugout.
RULING: R1 is awarded 1 base from the base held at the time of the pitch. This is treated the same as a wild pitch. (8-5C)

Section C specifically refers to: "a pitched ball that remains live becomes blocked or goes out of live ball territory."

Section G talks to "when the ball is live and is overthrown or is blocked".

So "C" would give the defense a break anytime there are multiple runners on a pitch that gets away, they could just kick it out of play to limit further advance by base runners.

I don't like it. I'd prefer the 2-base award if the defense knocked the ball out of play either accidentally or intentionally.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'm still researching...

I found a case play from 2007. It reads:

PLAY 8.6-22
(FP and SP with stealing) With R1 on 1B, F2 drops the pitch and the plate umpire, in an effort to get out of the way, accidentally kicks the ball into the dugout.
RULING: R1 is awarded 1 base from the base held at the time of the pitch. This is treated the same as a wild pitch. (8-5C)

Section C specifically refers to: "a pitched ball that remains live becomes blocked or goes out of live ball territory."

Section G talks to "when the ball is live and is overthrown or is blocked".

So "C" would give the defense a break anytime there are multiple runners on a pitch that gets away, they could just kick it out of play to limit further advance by base runners.

I don't like it. I'd prefer the 2-base award if the defense knocked the ball out of play either accidentally or intentionally.

There is a difference between an umpire kicking the ball and a player. We are part of the field, an umpire kick or a ricochet off an umpire is the same as a bounce off the dirt or the fence, etc. A kick by a player is a ball propelled by a player and so is a throw or muff or slap, etc.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

There is a difference between an umpire kicking the ball and a player.

Well, the player no doubt deserved it.

[jmkupka]

Don't we treat any kick, intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to enter DBT the same way we treat any throw (besides a pitch), intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to leave DBT?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Don't we treat any kick, intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to enter DBT the same way we treat any throw (besides a pitch), intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to leave DBT?

Yes, if I read yours correctly.

Tru and I are on a case about an umpire kicking the ball (post #6); not the same as a player "propelling" the ball; but same effect.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Don't we treat any kick, intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to enter DBT the same way we treat any throw (besides a pitch), intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to leave DBT?

That seems to be the point of the rule clarification. But if you take that point, then what is the point of the word intentionally in 8-5-K. And then our local direction here is that a pitched ball at rest unintentionally kicked out of play is one base time of pitch.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by youngump

That seems to be the point of the rule clarification. But if you take that point, then what is the point of the word intentionally in 8-5-K. And then our local direction here is that a pitched ball at rest unintentionally kicked out of play is one base time of pitch.

Then this would stink...

Runner on first, stealing with the pitch. Pitch bounces off the catcher and rolls over by the dugout. As catcher chases ball, runner rounds second and heads for third.

If I'm the catcher I'm going to use my best acting skills to "accidentally" kick the ball into the dugout when I try to retrieve it. Doing so puts the runner back on second base, instead of at third base.

I've always thought that this would be a two-base award, from the time of the "kick". But I can see how the case play might not be too clear about that.

[jmkupka]

Actually Bret, in your scenario a 2-base award would put the runner at home (if he'd rounded 2B before the kick)...

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Don't we treat any kick, intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to enter DBT the same way we treat any throw (besides a pitch), intentional or otherwise, that causes the ball to leave DBT?

Apparently, no.

As posted in another forum, the definitive answer is Rule 8.5.C.3 for Question 5 on this year's ASA test.

The ball's status on a pitch remains so. This was the thrust of my original post on the matter. While I'd prefer this to be a 2-base award, it's clear that ASA defines the award as 1 base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Well, the player no doubt deserved it.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'm still researching...

I found a case play from 2007. It reads:

PLAY 8.6-22
(FP and SP with stealing) With R1 on 1B, F2 drops the pitch and the plate umpire, in an effort to get out of the way, accidentally kicks the ball into the dugout.
RULING: R1 is awarded 1 base from the base held at the time of the pitch. This is treated the same as a wild pitch. (8-5C)

Section C specifically refers to: "a pitched ball that remains live becomes blocked or goes out of live ball territory."

Section G talks to "when the ball is live and is overthrown or is blocked".

So "C" would give the defense a break anytime there are multiple runners on a pitch that gets away, they could just kick it out of play to limit further advance by base runners.

I don't like it. I'd prefer the 2-base award if the defense knocked the ball out of play either accidentally or intentionally.

We got some local direction on this play that a pitch was still a pitch until a play was made (such as the catcher picking it up to throw it to the pitcher). I've reached out to our local UIC to get clarity on this play.

I'd also note that the July 2009 clarification is somewhat problematic because it makes section K meaningless. That's the rule for when a ball is kicked or pushed intentionally out of play. But if we treat an accidental kick like a throw then we are treating it like an intentional kick and the whole thing seems rather a convoluted mess.