Penalty on an unsuccesful try

[verticalStripes]

Fed Rules:
Try for point. A is in scrimmage kick formation with the holder ready to receive the snap. The snap is muffed by A1 the holder. A1 runs to the 11 yardline and is tackled by B1. Before the tackle is completed, B1 commits a 15 yard facemask foul. What choices does A have?

[Reffing Rev.]

The penalty for a foul by B is the basic spot.
The basic spot for a running play is the end of the run.

Retry half the distance from the end of the run, or decline and kickoff from the 40. You are probably wanting half the distance from the 3, sorry, not in Fed unless there is a pass, fumble or kick making it a loose ball play and then previous spot would be the basic spot.

[HLin NC]

I don't think K would consider declining the penalty. Replay the try from the R5 1/2 yard line.

[verticalStripes]

The question is whether A could take the ball at the 3 under the "decline the distance portion" rule, but it sounds like the Fed rules don't support that.

[maven]

Nobody quite has it yet.

A has 3 options:

1. Decline the penalty, try no good, KO from the K-40.

2. Accept the penalty half the distance from the end of the run, re-try from R-5.5

3. Accept the penalty, decline the distance portion, and re-try from the previous spot, R-3. 8-3-6b2



K will take option 3, and I wouldn't bother with asking about the other two.

K has NO option to take the penalty on the succeeding KO because this was not a scoring play (try was no good). 8-3-6

[maven]

Originally Posted by verticalStripes

The question is whether A could take the ball at the 3 under the "decline the distance portion" rule, but it sounds like the Fed rules don't support that.

Ordinarily, when A/K declines the distance portion, you'd continue play from where the previous play ended, in this case, the R-11.

But NFHS does have a rule specific to the try that permits K to replay the down from the previous spot, added to handle exactly this kind of case. 8-3-6b2

[whitehat]

Good call Maven

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by maven

Nobody quite has it yet.

A has 3 options:

1. Decline the penalty, try no good, KO from the K-40.

2. Accept the penalty half the distance from the end of the run, re-try from R-5.5

3. Accept the penalty, decline the distance portion, and re-try from the previous spot, R-3. 8-3-6b2



K will take option 3, and I wouldn't bother with asking about the other two.

K has NO option to take the penalty on the succeeding KO because this was not a scoring play (try was no good). 8-3-6

This was a very subtle rule change (may have been editorial) a couple years ago, and I didn't notice it until earlier this season when someone pointed out a play like this. I think it's a logical change.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

This was a very subtle rule change (may have been editorial) a couple years ago, and I didn't notice it until earlier this season when someone pointed out a play like this. I think it's a logical change.

It doesn't seem logical to me at all to have a special enforcement like this, rather than the usual spots & repetition of the down. Why should the try be different than any other situation wherein the defense fouls after team A has taken the ball backwards some distance?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It doesn't seem logical to me at all to have a special enforcement like this, rather than the usual spots & repetition of the down. Why should the try be different than any other situation wherein the defense fouls after team A has taken the ball backwards some distance?

It's a very special day in officiatingdotcomland... as I completely agree with Robert here.

Not saying the ruling above is wrong. Just saying I think the rule is illogical.

[asdf]

An unintended consequence from the 2012 editorial change.

I have talked to some that will propose that they fix this.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It doesn't seem logical to me at all to have a special enforcement like this, rather than the usual spots & repetition of the down. Why should the try be different than any other situation wherein the defense fouls after team A has taken the ball backwards some distance?

I think it makes sense because a try is a different kind of play in many ways and allowing A/K to re-try it at the original spot if a foul by B/R would leave the enforcement behind this spot is a fair penalty. I also think foul by A behind the NZ or fouls by B during running plays that end behind the NZ should be enforced at the previous spot. A DB holds a receiver downfield preventing the QB from having an open receiver and then a 15-yard sack should not result in A having to snap 5 yards BEHIND the previous spot.

[Texas Aggie]

Under NCAA rules, they would replay the try by accepting the penalty, but they could also elect to move the ball back to where the original snap was from. 8-3-2-c.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by asdf

An unintended consequence from the 2012 editorial change.

I have talked to some that will propose that they fix this.

Fix what? It's the exact same as the NCAA enforcement. It's one thing the NFHS actually has right. Only a few more to go...

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Rich

Fix what? It's the exact same as the NCAA enforcement. It's one thing the NFHS actually has right. Only a few more to go...

B leads A 14 -12 with 2 seconds remaining in the game. A's ball 3rd and goal from the 3. A56 snaps the ball over A12's head and there is a scramble for the ball. A12 finally secures the ball at B's 35 and attempts to advance it. B54 inadvertently grasps A12 by the face mask while he tackles him at B's 35.

A scores a touchdown as time expires making the score 14-12 in favor of B. On the try, A56 snaps the ball over A12's head and there is a scramble for the ball. A12 finally secures the ball at B's 35 and attempts to advance it. B54 inadvertently grasps A12 by the face mask while he tackles him at B's 35.


Save for the fact that a try is involved, this action after the snap is identical. However, in the first case A now has to attempt either a 47 yard field goal or a final Hail Mary to win the game. In the second scenario, A gets an attempt to tie the game by replaying the try from the 3.

By invoking the "declining the distance", team A actually is the recipient of a 32 yard penalty enforcement for a 5 yard face mask foul.

Hardly an equitable situation for B and this flies in the face of the philosophy that rules are made to create/ensure competitive a balance between the teams.