fumble, then penalty, then run

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I find this incredibly hard to believe. Not bagging a fumble spot is on the evaluation form. And this spot might be used even if A recovers (the OP and the other thread as an example), especially if there's another foul (on either team) that you're not aware of.

I was the LJ with the penalty and fumble, I was told to flag the spot of the foul and continue to officiate. Finding this incredibly hard to believe is offensive to me. I do what I am told to do by my White Hat. I am sorry that we may not have the same evalutation form. I am looking for assistance not being called a person not to believe.

[Reffing Rev.]

One of the things I cover in my pregame every week.
Bean Bag is for possible enforcements or violations.

My crew for some reason wants to bag muffed kicks. I always tell them no.

Last week 2nd half kickoff.
K kicks off short and before ball goes 10 yards or is touched by R or before R blocks K, K initiates contact, U has a flag down. Kick gets muffed by R80 and BJ threw a bean bag. Kick gets recovered by K. We're going to rekick after a 10 yard penalty. But R's coach wants to know why they can't decline the penalty and take the ball at the spot of first touching, because he thought that was why the bean bag was thrown.

So, this week's pregame will include another lecture on not bagging muffs.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

I was the LJ with the penalty and fumble, I was told to flag the spot of the foul and continue to officiate. Finding this incredibly hard to believe is offensive to me. I do what I am told to do by my White Hat. I am sorry that we may not have the same evalutation form. I am looking for assistance not being called a person not to believe.

Sorry you took offense. To be completely honest, though --- credibility is built (or lost) over time. It was certainly not my intent to offend you on purpose --- but I'm being honest when I say that the story is very very hard to buy. Let me just say this ... if it became known in any association I've worked on that a white hat was advising as you say he was advising, he would be corrected on that score in short order.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

... if it became known in any association I've worked on that a white hat was advising as you say he was advising, he would be corrected on that score in short order.

In defense of xtremeump, not all associations are quite so well disciplined. I have two WH's I've worked with that have quirks that they absolutely refuse to budge on.

The first flags A for illegal substitution every single time more than one player runs over to the sidelines to talk to a coach, claiming it is an unauthorized conference. He refuses to allow the players to go to the sidelines during an official's timeout. This despite numerous conversations during association meetings and small group discussions. When I initially challenged him on this (after getting blasted by him during a halftime discussion when I told B they could come over to the sidelines during an injury), I acquiesced because he was significantly more experienced than I was. And despite the long discussions, whenever this comes up in pre-games (I occasionally bring it up) his response is always "No while you are working on my crew."

The second absolutely refuses to accept flags for illegal use of the hands by B on a receiver. It is either a personal foul or nothing. I've brought this one up before on this board. This WH has made clear he will _always_ wave off such a flag.

And both of these guys continue to be WH's in our association. And always during discussion, they are corrected and keep silent. But come again Friday night, they ignore the entire discussion.

Not all associations are quite so well administered.

[ajmc]

When did it become our responsibility for avoiding total misconceptions others, who have no business eavesdropping on conversations, or actions, intended solely for other game officials?

Bean bags are dropped to alert/remind ourselves, or our crew mates, of certain things, andy are not intended to communicate with coaches, spectators or announcers who may choose to involve themselves in communications not intended for them.

It's the same reason Referees don't stick their head into a huddle and suggest what plays may not be working.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by ajmc

When did it become our responsibility for avoiding total misconceptions others, who have no business eavesdropping on conversations, or actions, intended solely for other game officials?

Bean bags are dropped to alert/remind ourselves, or our crew mates, of certain things, andy are not intended to communicate with coaches, spectators or announcers who may choose to involve themselves in communications not intended for them.

It's the same reason Referees don't stick their head into a huddle and suggest what plays may not be working.

Wow...I was thinking almost the exact same thing. And actually, since when would a coach's interpretation of an official's action be of any concern either way? They typically think there's a hold on every play when his team is on defense and he's 50+ yards away.
And for the record...our crew has always bagged a fumble anywhere. Maybe not the status quo everywhere, but....

[xtremeump]

Where in any NFHS Publications does it say to bag all fumbles ? I would bring it up if I knew where it is. Thanks

[HLin NC]

Try page 40 of the NFHS OFFICIALS MANUAL.

B. If there is a fumble, covering official should:
1. Mark yard line of fumble with bean bag if beyond line of scrimmage.