End of Wisconsin - Arizona State game

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by hbk314

They let an ASU player hold the ball hostage for 7 seconds on the ground without consequence. There is nothing else to be said.

If there is nothing to be said why did you ask for responses? I'm still confused as to your goal for posting. I've yet to see you state that this is something you pregame with your crew to make sure you handle end of game situations correctly.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

No one here offered any apologetics for the officials. That's ridiculous, frankly. All that was offered was a sort of mitigation from the initial claim that these guys should be fired. IOW, "yeah they screwed up, but get a grip."

I'd be curious to find out what the prescribed remedy would have been here. The R should have been a bit more adamant about the situation. I don't see any possibility of flagging the defense here, and I doubt that's the prescription. In order to justify that, the U would have needed to ask for the ball, right? I could be wrong on this, though.



No one said it made it ok. Only that it explains it. And that it was avoidable for the players. IOW, don't do something weird that might confuse the refs, even at that level.
Oh, and we objected to the inital (and repeated) claims that they should never work again.

Here is the thing, they do not have an answer. You noticed they did not tell the Umpire to throw the offensive lineman out of the way or to figure out why the Wisconsin team with plenty of time (according to the OP) did not just kick a FG from the right hash. I have given more solutions to the situation then this guy.

Something tells me that no team in the country will instruct their QB to put the ball on the ground again.

Peace

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Here is the thing, they do not have an answer. You noticed they did not tell the Umpire to throw the offensive lineman out of the way or to figure out why the Wisconsin team with plenty of time (according to the OP) did not just kick a FG from the right hash. I have given more solutions to the situation then this guy.

Something tells me that no team in the country will instruct their QB to put the ball on the ground again.

Peace

If the officials were so confused by the play, they need to stop the clock to get things sorted out. Even after the clock hit zero, there was ample opportunity to talk it out and fix it.

The one thing that can't happen is what they let happen. The umpire was standing there socializing instead of spotting the ball for play. If he thought ASU had a right to the ball, the clock should have been stopped for change of possession. There's no excuse whatsoever for him letting the ASU player lay on the ball for 7 seconds with the clock still running. That's a delay of game.

The officials denied Wisconsin an OPPORTUNITY to win the game, effectively taking the game out of the hands of the players and deciding it themselves.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'd be curious to find out what the prescribed remedy would have been here. The R should have been a bit more adamant about the situation. I don't see any possibility of flagging the defense here, and I doubt that's the prescription. In order to justify that, the U would have needed to ask for the ball, right? I could be wrong on this, though.

Actually, I don't think flagging the defense for laying on the ball once the umpire told him to get off would have been inappropriate. Of course, this would have required some awareness of the clock on the umpire's part - something that was clearly not there since he felt it was a great opportunity to chat up the other defensive player rather than getting the ball.

No one said it made it ok. Only that it explains it. And that it was avoidable for the players. IOW, don't do something weird that might confuse the refs, even at that level.

It's not always possible to read what Jeff really does mean ... but several of his comments came across (to me at least) as saying the QB's idiocy DID make it OK that the officials screwed it up.

Oh, and we objected to the inital (and repeated) claims that they should never work again.

I do too. Right with you on that one.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hbk314

If the officials were so confused by the play, they need to stop the clock to get things sorted out. Even after the clock hit zero, there was ample opportunity to talk it out and fix it.

The one thing that can't happen is what they let happen. The umpire was standing there socializing instead of spotting the ball for play. If he thought ASU had a right to the ball, the clock should have been stopped for change of possession. There's no excuse whatsoever for him letting the ASU player lay on the ball for 7 seconds with the clock still running. That's a delay of game.

The officials denied Wisconsin an OPPORTUNITY to win the game, effectively taking the game out of the hands of the players and deciding it themselves.

Then if they do what you suggested and Wisconsin "clocks" the ball, and ASU fan on this site will claim the officials gave Wisconsin the game to set up field goal. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Wisconsin denied their chance to win the game. Kick the ball from the hash. If you cannot recruit a kicker to do that from HS (which has a wider angle from the hash) from that short distance, you do not deserve to win. Sorry, but it would have been easy to try a kick rather then trying to be cute. You are not going to change my mind on that point of view. They did not have to run another play to get the ball to the middle.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by hbk314

If the officials were so confused by the play, they need to stop the clock to get things sorted out. Even after the clock hit zero, there was ample opportunity to talk it out and fix it.

You're not an official. We get that. But after being told this twelve ways to Sunday - what you're proscribing was NOT an option. If they had done as you suggested, they'd have done something equally as bad as what they actually did - only the victim of that screw up would have changed.

The umpire was standing there socializing instead of spotting the ball for play. If he thought ASU had a right to the ball, the clock should have been stopped for change of possession. There's no excuse whatsoever for him letting the ASU player lay on the ball for 7 seconds with the clock still running. That's a delay of game.

Here's where I completely agree with you.

The officials denied Wisconsin an OPPORTUNITY to win the game, effectively taking the game out of the hands of the players and deciding it themselves.

And again ... this is no better than what you said before. Don't go there - you lose all credibility and your point goes out the window as this incorrect concept draws all the attention. PS - they HAD an opportunity to win the game. They chose to run a play instead and bad stuff happened.

[MD Longhorn]

Put it this way... Wisconsin chose to take a risk by running a play - not a big risk, but a risk. Something that should have worked 99% of the time, and increased their chances of making the field goal marginally. Unfortunately, they then rolled double-zeros.

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then if they do what you suggested and Wisconsin "clocks" the ball, and ASU fan on this site will claim the officials gave Wisconsin the game to set up field goal. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Wisconsin denied their chance to win the game. Kick the ball from the hash. If you cannot recruit a kicker to do that from HS (which has a wider angle from the hash) from that short distance, you do not deserve to win. Sorry, but it would have been easy to try a kick rather then trying to be cute. You are not going to change my mind on that point of view. They did not have to run another play to get the ball to the middle.

Peace

Instead they rewarded ASU for laying on a dead ball for seven seconds preventing it from being spotted.

Your second paragraph has no relevance. There's no grey area here. The officials were completely in the wrong, and it denied Wisconsin an opportunity to attempt a game winning field goal.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by hbk314

and it denied Wisconsin an opportunity to attempt a game winning field goal.

Trying so hard to help you here.... but now I'm out. You don't get it and don't want to get it.

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Put it this way... Wisconsin chose to take a risk by running a play - not a big risk, but a risk. Something that should have worked 99% of the time, and increased their chances of making the field goal marginally. Unfortunately, they then rolled double-zeros.

I understand what you're saying, and if it had been a Wisconsin error that cost them, I'd agree with you.

It cannot be disputed that the officials mishandling of the situation cost Wisconsin a chance to win the game. Wisconsin may have missed the field goal in the end, but they didn't get the chance to attempt it.

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Trying so hard to help you here.... but now I'm out. You don't get it and don't want to get it.

You've probably been the most reasonable person on this thread, but what I'm saying is true. Officials mistakes prevented Wisconsin from attempting a game-winning field goal. That's clear, in black and white.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

It's not always possible to read what Jeff really does mean ... but several of his comments came across (to me at least) as saying the QB's idiocy DID make it OK that the officials screwed it up. I do too.

I never said no such craziness.

You put the ball on the ground, players go after the ball. You think ASU did not think for a few seconds that was a loose ball? And who caused that? The QB who just put the ball on the ground that is who. Players do not set the ball on the ground. When have we ever done that as officials? Players know this if they watch any football. It might not matter a whole lot, but that was not necessarily the spot where the ball would be placed. He should have at least handed the ball to the Referee (not the best person) or the Umpire and then no one would have thought the ball was a fumble. And if ASU prevented such action to get the ball in play now you have some reasonable recourse. Not everyone hears a whistle the same way either. We have enough plays where even when whistles are blown players do not stop immediately and we do not penalize them for further actions. If teams that run these Oregon style offenses on regular plays do this, so could this player.

All I am saying is do not cause the confusion. You want the ball back in play, help the officials do just that. And it was a also a case of over coaching. Why is getting the ball to the middle so valuable? They miss FGs all the time in the NFL and the hashes are even closer to the middle.

I know this is an officiating site, but I think the team should be blamed for what they did. And just as I thought the officials will likely still be working and this will be a footnote in the season.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by hbk314

Instead they rewarded ASU for laying on a dead ball for seven seconds preventing it from being spotted.

Your second paragraph has no relevance. There's no grey area here. The officials were completely in the wrong, and it denied Wisconsin an opportunity to attempt a game winning field goal.

What was the remedy? It is so black and white as you say, give me the rule and the section this situation says for the officials to do something. Saying they owe the team an explanation is not in the rules.

I would wait, but if you have not given an answer yet, you are not going to give one anytime soon.

Peace

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What was the remedy? It is so black and white as you say, give me the rule and the section this situation says for the officials to do something. Saying they owe the team an explanation is not in the rules.

I would wait, but if you have not given an answer yet, you are not going to give one anytime soon.

Peace

Delay of game.

[qcumpire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is not a replay situation. The clock was not stopped and should not have been stopped unless some penalty or other action (which I am still trying to figure out what action could have been taken) was taken.

Peace

The reason I ask, is that is has been questioned whether or not the Wisconsin QB's knee was actually down before he placed the ball on the field. After which the ASU player fell on the ball. This would make it a possession question and not a clock issue, and that would be subject to a replay review.

I'm not saying that it should have been reviewed. What I am saying is if they are going to downgrade the deep wings and back judge for this play, even though they are not directly involved, will the conference also look at the replay official for his inaction?