End of Wisconsin - Arizona State game

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Sorry, but it would have been easy to try a kick rather then trying to be cute. You are not going to change my mind on that point of view. They did not have to run another play to get the ball to the middle.

They didn't have to play football at all, for that matter.

They had a couple downs to use. They had enough time, given anything close to normal officiating. Centering the ball is the appropriate thing to do. You're going to want to leave as close to 0 as you can get on the clock after your kick succeeds, and you want to maximize the angle for the kick to maximize the chance of its success.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You put the ball on the ground, players go after the ball. You think ASU did not think for a few seconds that was a loose ball? And who caused that? The QB who just put the ball on the ground that is who.

Then why doesn't 3-3-2(e)8 apply?

Players do not set the ball on the ground.

I tell my players every practice session to do exactly that. You hear the whistle, you stop what you're doing and leave the ball on the ground.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is a picture in this thread that shows a knee touched the ground. And simulating taking a knee also kills the play. But putting the ball on the ground when it was unclear if he went down caused the confusion. If he holds onto the ball and hands it to the umpire, none of this is at issue IMO.

If he didn't kneel or simulate kneeling, why is that any less confusing? "Look out, he's passing -- to the umpire!" The ball is either recognized as dead or not. If it's not, it doesn't matter how he gets rid of it. Most balls are not dead on touching an official.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Then why doesn't 3-3-2(e)8 apply?

I tell my players every practice session to do exactly that. You hear the whistle, you stop what you're doing and leave the ball on the ground.

Yes if there are 5 minutes left in the 3rd quarter. If there are 15 seconds left at the of the play you get it as quickly as possible to the nearest official so they can get it set. You risking several different things happening to the ball if you don't. This play is a great example of what can happen if you don't do this. There is fault in the officials as well, but the QB is definitely a key contributor.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Then why doesn't 3-3-2(e)8 apply?

Why don't you explain this one to me, because I am still trying to figure out what this has to do with the situation? The clock was not stopped.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I tell my players every practice session to do exactly that. You hear the whistle, you stop what you're doing and leave the ball on the ground.

You obviously did not actually read what I said. Players that run no-huddle or speed up offenses often teach their players to hand the officials the ball, so they can get the ball to the line and run a play quickly. If you want to tell your players to do that in the middle of the game that is fine with me. But when you are in hurry up, you will slow down things if you tell them to do that.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by APG

That's not what he suggested...he said the QB, after taking a knee, should have handed the ball to the nearest official, instead of spotting it himself...which the QB even admitted himself.

I know it's not what he suggested, but it's what I coach. I'm not having my players look around for an official. It's the official's job to get the ball. I've also never heard an official ask for such service from a player, I just hear them tell them to get off the ball, leave the ball, etc. Having the players deliver the ball to them or wait there for them to come pick it up delays the game, at least insofar as it affects my players. If they attempt to throw the ball to an official, the delay can be even greater.

As it appears from the photos, the player in this case spotted the ball perfectly. He even left the laces up for his snapper!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If he didn't kneel or simulate kneeling, why is that any less confusing? "Look out, he's passing -- to the umpire!" The ball is either recognized as dead or not. If it's not, it doesn't matter how he gets rid of it. Most balls are not dead on touching an official.

What players do you know when the ball is on the ground they do not try to cover it? That happens a lot even when there has not been a fumble ruled on a play. It happens when it is the first play of the game if on a close catch and the ball is on the ground, players go after the ball not waiting for an official to announce it is a fumble. Now you have put a ball on the ground when you need ever second. And if he handed the official the football, then it would be clear to the officials if the ASU players tried to interfere with the ball. What the QB did helped cause confusion and delay to their cause.

And this is why the QB said what he did to the media (APG quote). He knows that he did not help the situation. If he thinks the other team is going to play nice so that they can run a play, he obviously learned that is not the case.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I know it's not what he suggested, but it's what I coach. I'm not having my players look around for an official. It's the official's job to get the ball. I've also never heard an official ask for such service from a player, I just hear them tell them to get off the ball, leave the ball, etc. Having the players deliver the ball to them or wait there for them to come pick it up delays the game, at least insofar as it affects my players. If they attempt to throw the ball to an official, the delay can be even greater.

As it appears from the photos, the player in this case spotted the ball perfectly. He even left the laces up for his snapper!

I do not know about you, but I probably work more games then you coach at both the college ranks and the high school ranks. At the college level we are used to the football being thrown to us by even those that are not as accurate with their tosses. At the high school level we do not have ball boys, so that is how we often get the ball back to our umpire. Rarely have a problem. And once again, it was to Wisconsin's advantage to give the official the ball themselves. Instead they allowed confusion and you see what happened. They lost.

You can point fingers all day long, but I tend to look at what I could have done instead of saying why someone else was at fault. I can only control what I do. I can never control what others do.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why don't you explain this one to me, because I am still trying to figure out what this has to do with the situation? The clock was not stopped.

I know, that's the problem. You or someone upthread said players of both teams contributed to delaying the RFP. If that's the case, this provision said the game clock is supposed to be stopped and then started again on the ref's signal.

You obviously did not actually read what I said. Players that run no-huddle or speed up offenses often teach their players to hand the officials the ball, so they can get the ball to the line and run a play quickly. If you want to tell your players to do that in the middle of the game that is fine with me. But when you are in hurry up, you will slow down things if you tell them to do that.

If the player has the ball in his hands close to the dead ball spot, how can putting the ball on the ground slow things down? The official spotting the ball is going to have to come to the dead ball spot and bend down anyway. But meanwhile the player could be getting into position rather than looking or waiting for the official.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What players do you know when the ball is on the ground they do not try to cover it? That happens a lot even when there has not been a fumble ruled on a play. It happens when it is the first play of the game if on a close catch and the ball is on the ground, players go after the ball not waiting for an official to announce it is a fumble.

It's been reported upthread that a whistle sounded. This is very interesting: an official saying players should play past the whistle.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I know, that's the problem. You or someone upthread said players of both teams contributed to delaying the RFP. If that's the case, this provision said the game clock is supposed to be stopped and then started again on the ref's signal.

I have blamed Wisconsin. I did not blame ASU. ASU players were doing what I expected them to do.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If the player has the ball in his hands close to the dead ball spot, how can putting the ball on the ground slow things down? The official spotting the ball is going to have to come to the dead ball spot and bend down anyway. But meanwhile the player could be getting into position rather than looking or waiting for the official.

Did the officials use his spot? Obviously not, so give the ball to the person that will spot the ball based on the forward progress the officials have determined. How often do you see a player put the ball forward when they have been ruled down? How often do the officials just leave the ball where the player put the ball down? Never, so thanks for playing.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It's been reported upthread that a whistle sounded. This is very interesting: an official saying players should play past the whistle.

Again, I am sure I officiate more football games in a year then you coach. And it is not uncommon for players to play despite the whistle being blown. I guess you have players in your games just stop the minute they hear the whistle whether it is a block or even a tackle. You should have seen my game Friday and how many times a whistle was blown and someone how we had to use our voice or blow the whistle as blocks and players were still moving after the whistle. I guess that never happens in any game you have ever been involved in.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I know it's not what he suggested, but it's what I coach. I'm not having my players look around for an official. It's the official's job to get the ball. I've also never heard an official ask for such service from a player, I just hear them tell them to get off the ball, leave the ball, etc. Having the players deliver the ball to them or wait there for them to come pick it up delays the game, at least insofar as it affects my players. If they attempt to throw the ball to an official, the delay can be even greater.

As it appears from the photos, the player in this case spotted the ball perfectly. He even left the laces up for his snapper!

That's your team...coach them as you see fit. Sure it's the official's job to get the ball, but the team that hands it to the official makes the job quicker and easier for the official. If you feel your team doesn't have the ability to quickly find the nearest official, then by all means tell them to just drop the ball.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Did the officials use his spot? Obviously not,

I can't tell that from the stills.

so give the ball to the person that will spot the ball based on the forward progress the officials have determined. How often do you see a player put the ball forward when they have been ruled down?

And you're saying it takes more time to move the ball from one position on the ground to a nearby position than it does to take it from some other place to that position?

How often do the officials just leave the ball where the player put the ball down?

In this case they could have. What's the U have to do, touch the ball with his hand to make it official?

[APG]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It's been reported upthread that a whistle sounded. This is very interesting: an official saying players should play past the whistle.

At the NCAA and NFL level as it relates to a fumble vs ball dead or a backward pass vs a forward pass? Yes, they should still attempt to recover the ball...if the QB hadn't had put his knee down, then by the ASU getting on the top of the ball with a clear recovery, they would have gotten the ball.