Out of bounds mechanics

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

No more double signals!!!!

If he's out of bounds OR if it's a first down - stop the clock.
If he's in bounds and it's not a first down - do nothing.

That might lead to some of the confusion Rich experienced and described in his other post -- the ECO is not sure whether the R will be starting the clock on the RFP so doesn't bother to look for the signal -- especially if the ECO is not aware of the mechanics change.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That might lead to some of the confusion Rich experienced and described in his other post -- the ECO is not sure whether the R will be starting the clock on the RFP so doesn't bother to look for the signal -- especially if the ECO is not aware of the mechanics change.

That is why you have a conversation with the ECO before the game. It is the expected standard to talk to them to not only find out what they know, but to explain rules and situations that might apply. And even with the mechanics change, people still wind the clock then stop it. I actually thought this was a silly change as you are giving information to your crew as much as the clock guy.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is why you have a conversation with the ECO before the game. It is the expected standard to talk to them to not only find out what they know, but to explain rules and situations that might apply. And even with the mechanics change, people still wind the clock then stop it. I actually thought this was a silly change as you are giving information to your crew as much as the clock guy.

Peace

I think it's a good change. If the ECO turns away from the wing when he winds, then what?

If there's little time in the game and the "wind, then stop" results in a delay of stopping the clock for an extra second or two, then what?

I'm really working with my wings to eliminate the extra mechanic -- I'm the one that starts the clock anyway, so why is it needed if they're communicating with us? Our guys will kill the clock and then immediately signal to me and the crew that we're winding on the RFP. Really, this makes the most sense as a mechanic -- we stop the clock and THEN tell everyone that it will wind at the RFP.

[Forksref]

We don't wind the clock if it is a first down. We tell the ECO to simply stop or start on our signals. If it is near the sideline and not a first down we may wind it to indicate he is not out of bounds. Personal preference here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I think it's a good change. If the ECO turns away from the wing when he winds, then what?

If there's little time in the game and the "wind, then stop" results in a delay of stopping the clock for an extra second or two, then what?

I'm really working with my wings to eliminate the extra mechanic -- I'm the one that starts the clock anyway, so why is it needed if they're communicating with us? Our guys will kill the clock and then immediately signal to me and the crew that we're winding on the RFP. Really, this makes the most sense as a mechanic -- we stop the clock and THEN tell everyone that it will wind at the RFP.

My main problem is that if you have a close play near the sideline, you should wind the clock no matter what unless you clearly know this is a first down by many yards. Now you have added another thought process to if it is or is not a first down if it is close.

I guess I do not see the big deal why it would be considered an "extra mechanic" when you are just officiating the play and giving what you have called. I can see coaches not knowing the clock is going to run on the RFP and have had them already be surprised when a player was not out of bounds. After all this change was for the coaches, not from the officials.

Peace

[ajmc]

From the perspective of a clock operator, the "wind" signal given by field officials, on any play close to a sideline, removes any element of doubt as to what has happened. That confirmation may be more helpful on plays at the near sideline, rather than far sideline, because so much of the actual sideline is blocked from sight on the near sideline. The far sideline can swallow up a wing official due to the congestion in front of the team area.

It is extremely helpful, for the "inside" field officials (R & U) to pick up and relay those wind signals because the sideline congestion often blocks, or delays, observing the wing officials. (Despite the many significant benefits gained by changing to black pants for officials, picking officials up, vizually, on a crowed sideline, is more difficult than it was when white knickers were worn).

"Inside" officials (R & U) can provide a similar benefit echoing incomplete (or stop the clock) signals on sideline passes, for the same congestion reasons.

Perhaps habit, but the wind signal, followed by stop the clock, on 1st downs near a sideline, when the play ends in bounds, despite recent suggestions, are extremely helpful in alerting the clock operator of the circumstance and subsequently finding and focusing on the Referee, so that the subsequent instruction to start the clock, on the RFP, being anticipated, will be responded to promptly.

When the combination of both signals is executed properly, there should be NO time lost. The primary purpose of any signal, should be to convey pertinent, relevant information to where it is needed.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ajmc

From the perspective of a clock operator, the "wind" signal given by field officials, on any play close to a sideline, removes any element of doubt as to what has happened. That confirmation may be more helpful on plays at the near sideline, rather than far sideline, because so much of the actual sideline is blocked from sight on the near sideline. The far sideline can swallow up a wing official due to the congestion in front of the team area.

It is extremely helpful, for the "inside" field officials (R & U) to pick up and relay those wind signals because the sideline congestion often blocks, or delays, observing the wing officials. (Despite the many significant benefits gained by changing to black pants for officials, picking officials up, vizually, on a crowed sideline, is more difficult than it was when white knickers were worn).

"Inside" officials (R & U) can provide a similar benefit echoing incomplete (or stop the clock) signals on sideline passes, for the same congestion reasons.

Perhaps habit, but the wind signal, followed by stop the clock, on 1st downs near a sideline, when the play ends in bounds, despite recent suggestions, are extremely helpful in alerting the clock operator of the circumstance and subsequently finding and focusing on the Referee, so that the subsequent instruction to start the clock, on the RFP, being anticipated, will be responded to promptly.

When the combination of both signals is executed properly, there should be NO time lost. The primary purpose of any signal, should be to convey pertinent, relevant information to where it is needed.

The HL mirrors our stop the clock mechanic on a first down.

Our LJ makes 100% of the line-to-gain decisions. If he stops the clock on a play that ends inbounds, it's a first down OR the chains are coming out. My only signal as the R is the first down, ball spotted, wind clock. Or I bring the chains out. Even *I* don't mirror the stop the clock as the R -- it's completely unnecessary -- I've already looked to make sure the clock stopped.

I've seen crews work where every official seems to mirror everything. I think that's completely unnecessary. YMMV.

If the clock fails to stop on a play where the LJ is the covering official and the ECO doesn't see the signal, I'll put the time back on the clock. I can't remember the last time that happened. Most of the film we get back is from the press box -- and our LJ is very, very visible from that height.

[CT1]

[QUOTE=Rich;904566]
I've seen crews work where every official seems to mirror everything. I think that's completely unnecessary. YMMV.[QUOTE]

Our state requires that all officials mirror the "stop-the-clock" signal for the reasons that ajmc gave.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Rich

I've seen crews work where every official seems to mirror everything. I think that's completely unnecessary. YMMV.

The mechanics folk seem to flip-flop on this one. I remember a state clinic I attended years ago where they emphasized absolutely no mirroring of signals (especially TDs). This applied even to stopping the clock. Then, just a couple of years later, some officials returned from a state clinic pointing out that all officals--except the covering official--are to mirror stop the clock signals. And other officials were to stop the clock when the covering official signaled an incomplete pass. Then against, just a few years later, no mirroring of signals. At one point, there was even a mechanic to not have other officials stop the clock on an incomplete pass (since the incomplete signal itself was sufficient).

For my part, I think the problem is poor mechanics and lack of consistency. The evaluators see several crews doing something poorly or inconsistently, or several different crews doing things differently, so then they come out with some new mechanics to try and get things into shape. Then it oscillates between new mechanics, crews not well trained or practiced, then back to new mechanics.

Shrug.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

The HL mirrors our stop the clock mechanic on a first down.

Our LJ makes 100% of the line-to-gain decisions. If he stops the clock on a play that ends inbounds, it's a first down OR the chains are coming out. My only signal as the R is the first down, ball spotted, wind clock. Or I bring the chains out. Even *I* don't mirror the stop the clock as the R -- it's completely unnecessary -- I've already looked to make sure the clock stopped.

I've seen crews work where every official seems to mirror everything. I think that's completely unnecessary. YMMV.

If the clock fails to stop on a play where the LJ is the covering official and the ECO doesn't see the signal, I'll put the time back on the clock. I can't remember the last time that happened. Most of the film we get back is from the press box -- and our LJ is very, very visible from that height.

On my crew we all signal with a stop clock motion if a first down is made and obvious. If we have a first and 10 and they gain 30 yards, we give the signal. Only the LJ makes the decision when it is close.

And as BJ I will signal stop clock when I know it should be, even if it is an out of bounds play as I have responsibility on the sideline for clean up. I would not say we mirror everything. If I do not see something, I do not make any signal.

And we also do not put time on the clock for something like a first down unless time is critical. But if it is 8:52 on the clock and during a first down with the clock would be running, we are not putting time on the clock if a couple of seconds ran off.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That might lead to some of the confusion Rich experienced and described in his other post -- the ECO is not sure whether the R will be starting the clock on the RFP so doesn't bother to look for the signal -- especially if the ECO is not aware of the mechanics change.

We should be talking with him beforehand... but just as in officiating any other sport - the possibility that someone else might not do their job correctly is not a good reason for us to do our jobs incorrectly.