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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 04, 2004, 08:57pm
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Fed Rules
Had a scrimmage (2 whistle) today. Play happened with me as L. A2 runs from wing my side under basket and out of bounds under basket (going around screen), comes back inbounds on trail side to receive pass and shoot from corner.

I didn't call anything (under motto of if I can't explain it, don't call it). No issues from either coach but it didn't look right. Came home tonight, looked at rules, casebook, and "comic book" but couldn't find any reference.

Did I miss the call? Rule cite please.
Thanks,
Chris
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 04, 2004, 09:11pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by RecRefNC
Fed Rules
Had a scrimmage (2 whistle) today. Play happened with me as L. A2 runs from wing my side under basket and out of bounds under basket (going around screen), comes back inbounds on trail side to receive pass and shoot from corner.
Chris,
Try
  • R10-3-3
  • C10.3.3
  • POE 3A


    mick
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      #3 (permalink)  
    Old Sat Dec 04, 2004, 09:21pm
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    Well, Snap. Missed that one clear and clean.

    Thanks for the reference, Mick.

    Now a followup-from game management standpoint, would you call the T immediately (understand that it would immediately be called with Middle School or HS) but doing all of my work with rec league from anywhere from 7 yr old "mob ball" to HS rec league.

    Looking back (and forward to first games in a couple of weeks), I can easily call this from 14 yr old and up, but would have harder time with younger players.

    Thanks for any and all advice.
    C
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      #4 (permalink)  
    Old Sat Dec 04, 2004, 09:36pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by RecRefNC
    Well, Snap. Missed that one clear and clean.

    Thanks for the reference, Mick.

    Now a followup-from game management standpoint, would you call the T immediately (understand that it would immediately be called with Middle School or HS) but doing all of my work with rec league from anywhere from 7 yr old "mob ball" to HS rec league.

    Looking back (and forward to first games in a couple of weeks), I can easily call this from 14 yr old and up, but would have harder time with younger players.

    Thanks for any and all advice.
    C
    Chris,
    For the record, I would rather have the penalty as a violation.
    For rec ball, I would be wrong to, but sorely tempted to, stop play, explain the infraction, and give the ball to the other team. Then I'd go get either team next time, if necessary.
    ...Or I just call the "T" and "forget them".
    mick
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      #5 (permalink)  
    Old Sat Dec 04, 2004, 11:58pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by mick
    Quote:
    Originally posted by RecRefNC
    Well, Snap. Missed that one clear and clean.

    Thanks for the reference, Mick.

    Now a followup-from game management standpoint, would you call the T immediately (understand that it would immediately be called with Middle School or HS) but doing all of my work with rec league from anywhere from 7 yr old "mob ball" to HS rec league.

    Looking back (and forward to first games in a couple of weeks), I can easily call this from 14 yr old and up, but would have harder time with younger players.

    Thanks for any and all advice.
    C
    Chris,
    For the record, I would rather have the penalty as a violation.
    For rec ball, I would be wrong to, but sorely tempted to, stop play, explain the infraction, and give the ball to the other team. Then I'd go get either team next time, if necessary.
    ...Or I just call the "T" and "forget them".
    mick
    This is not a new rule, but a new POI this season. I've seen it twice in five years, and both times it was clearly a designed play that the players had worked on. I stopped the game, explained and then said that next time, they'd get a T. I know this is not what we're supposed to do, but I also knew that NO ONE knew this rule and it seemed to me grossly unfair to whack 'em just for being old (the coach) and stupid (the players). I will also note that neither of these situations involved varsity.
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      #6 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Dec 05, 2004, 05:13am
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by rainmaker
    Quote:
    Originally posted by mick
    Quote:
    Originally posted by RecRefNC
    Well, Snap. Missed that one clear and clean.

    Thanks for the reference, Mick.

    Now a followup-from game management standpoint, would you call the T immediately (understand that it would immediately be called with Middle School or HS) but doing all of my work with rec league from anywhere from 7 yr old "mob ball" to HS rec league.

    Looking back (and forward to first games in a couple of weeks), I can easily call this from 14 yr old and up, but would have harder time with younger players.

    Thanks for any and all advice.
    C
    Chris,
    For the record, I would rather have the penalty as a violation.
    For rec ball, I would be wrong to, but sorely tempted to, stop play, explain the infraction, and give the ball to the other team. Then I'd go get either team next time, if necessary.
    ...Or I just call the "T" and "forget them".
    mick
    This is not a new rule, but a new POI this season. I've seen it twice in five years, and both times it was clearly a designed play that the players had worked on. I stopped the game, explained and then said that next time, they'd get a T. I know this is not what we're supposed to do, but I also knew that NO ONE knew this rule and it seemed to me grossly unfair to whack 'em just for being old (the coach) and stupid (the players). I will also note that neither of these situations involved varsity.
    I agree, Juulie. Definitely a POI this year. Never had it before, never seen it before. Then suddenly twice in two days, both JV games.

    Had a kid yesterday go oob, 2/3 of the way along the basline then come back in to receive the pass and take an open shot. T. JV coach is on my tail about making stuff up. Varsity coach takes the first five minutes of halftime to explain his feelings on it. Partner had a similar situation today, only he'd warned them once already.

    WILL SOMEBODY AT THE FED PLEASE REMOVE THEIR CRANIUM FROM THEIR ANUS AND MAKE THIS A SIMPLE VIOLATION?!? As yesterday's varsity coach so longwindedly pointed out, it's a three posession penalty for a simple infraction.
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      #7 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Dec 05, 2004, 09:22am
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    I've seen several comments on this in the past few weeks in some other threads and it seems that almost everyone that has commented on it thinks it should be a simple violation, not at T.
    Perhaps some of the senior members can provide some insight as to how the FED works (administratively).
    If officials take the call to the letter of the law, wouldn't that bring the visibility this rule needs to get changed? If officials call it more often (like it or not) then coaches will funnel it up the chain suggesting it be changed.
    Again, just asking...but it seems to me that ignoring the rule certainly won't get any visibility.
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      #8 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Dec 05, 2004, 10:32am
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    It seems strange to me that we've all only seen it once every five years, until this year, and all of a sudden, everyone is doing it. What's up with that?
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      #9 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Dec 05, 2004, 12:17pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by rainmaker
    It seems strange to me that we've all only seen it once every five years, until this year, and all of a sudden, everyone is doing it. What's up with that?
    Jewel,
    It's like the speed limit.
    Not enforced, thus broken.

    ...Or maybe the coaching clinics are teaching it.
    mick
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      #10 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Dec 05, 2004, 01:48pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
    [/B]
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    This is not a new rule, but a new POI this season.
    [/B][/QUOTE]I agree, Juulie. Definitely a POI this year. [/B][/QUOTE]I disagree . It's a POE-Point of Emphasis-, not a POI-Point of Interruption.

    Where's Mr. Language/Grammar/Rules/Anal Guy when you really need him?
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      #11 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Dec 05, 2004, 02:57pm
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    Just a thought. If this were a violation what would be the penalty when the defense goes oob to avoid being screened etc. The offense already has the ball therefore calling a violation on the D wouldn't be a penalty would it?

    thanks

    shont
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      #12 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Dec 05, 2004, 03:11pm
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    I haven't had this happen yet, but its just a matter of time. In my pregame with the players and coaches, I have been reminding them about the POE's. After a short discussion, I let the captains go and ask the coaches to stay. I then ask them if they have any questions about what we discussed or about any other topic. We then discuss any concerns they might have. If they don't have anything, we seperate and continue our pregame responsibilities.

    In our association, we have a preseason meeting with coaches and referees. This meeting purpose is to go over rules pertaining to POE's. There are always more officials who attend this meeting than there are coaches. In fact, most coaches do not attend. My feelings are, if they don't care enough to attend a rules meeting, or to get a copy of the rules book and learn them, then why should I care if it comes back to bite them on the hind cheek?

    Back n Saddle, that coach had the chance to voice his/her disapproval at that meeting. Jerry was there to field and answer any questions. You did the right thing in assessing the correct penalty for this action. It probably should be changed to a violation. But anytime a player runs out of bounds for 2/3 of the court, he/she is gaining an unfair advantage.

    NEMHO
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      #13 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Dec 05, 2004, 07:05pm
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
    Quote:
    Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
    [/B]
    This is not a new rule, but a new POI this season.
    [/B][/QUOTE]I agree, Juulie. Definitely a POI this year. [/B][/QUOTE]I disagree . It's a POE-Point of Emphasis-, not a POI-Point of Interruption.

    Where's Mr. Language/Grammar/Rules/Anal Guy when you really need him? [/B][/QUOTE]Juulie may have mis-typed. I, however, meant what I typed.

    Whistle and signal: 3 seconds
    Reporting: 5 seconds
    Answering the offender's question: 10 seconds
    Answering the coaches question: 30 seconds
    Listening to the coach moan and groan: off and on for the rest of the game

    It's definitely an interruption.
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      #14 (permalink)  
    Old Sun Dec 05, 2004, 07:16pm
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    Many thanks to all who posted.

    Good to get the perspective of those wiser than I.

    Now I know what to do when the season starts.

    C
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      #15 (permalink)  
    Old Mon Dec 06, 2004, 10:33am
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by BamaRef
    I haven't had this happen yet, but its just a matter of time. In my pregame with the players and coaches, I have been reminding them about the POE's. After a short discussion, I let the captains go and ask the coaches to stay. I then ask them if they have any questions about what we discussed or about any other topic. We then discuss any concerns they might have. If they don't have anything, we seperate and continue our pregame responsibilities.

    In our association, we have a preseason meeting with coaches and referees. This meeting purpose is to go over rules pertaining to POE's. There are always more officials who attend this meeting than there are coaches. In fact, most coaches do not attend. My feelings are, if they don't care enough to attend a rules meeting, or to get a copy of the rules book and learn them, then why should I care if it comes back to bite them on the hind cheek?

    Back n Saddle, that coach had the chance to voice his/her disapproval at that meeting. Jerry was there to field and answer any questions. You did the right thing in assessing the correct penalty for this action. It probably should be changed to a violation. But anytime a player runs out of bounds for 2/3 of the court, he/she is gaining an unfair advantage.

    NEMHO
    I couldn't agree more. If something like this catches a coach by surprise, it's because the coach isn't doing his job.

    But I wonder, was the varsity coach "working me" to try and change how I call this? Was he practicing his pitch for when one of the varsity guys call it in his game? Or is it that he sees potential written all over me and wants to help me along in my quest to make varsity? I'll choose to believe the latter
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