Rules questions

[Steven Tyler]

1. High school game. Defense recovers a fumble, and is returning for a TD. I didn't see what happened, but the offense was flagged for 3 personel fouls on the return. I don't exactly recall what the white hat said, but I believe he used the term, targeting a defenseless player. I think the fouls were about 35 or 40 yards from the goal line behind the player running with the football.

The fouls were enforced on the kickoff, and the kickoff was from the returning teams 15 yard line. Since there has to be a 10 yard "buffer zone", the returning team was behind their 5 yard line.

My real question is what would happen if there and been 4 personel fouls, and the ball would have spotted athe 7 1/2 yard line (?), and there wouldn't be an actual 10 yard "buffer zone".

2. Duplicate numbers in NCAA game. I have seen duplicate numbers in NCAA games, and I know they can't be on the field at the same time. Last year watching a UTexas game they had 3 players wearing #19. A tight end, kicker, and some guy that had headphones on, and looked like he was probably way down the depth chart. My question is what is the actual rule about duplicate numbers.

These are just curiousity questions as I've never seen or heard of the two situations.

[JRutledge]

1. You would go half the distance to the goal on each penalty if necessary.

2. You just stated what the basics of the rule is. They cannot be on the field at the same time. Think about it this way, D1 teams can have 85 scholarships each year. With possible retired numbers and considering that most cannot be on the field at the same time with an offensive and defensive player.

Peace

[mtridge]

shouldn't mater if there were 3, 4, or 10 if they all occurred during the return they are all live ball and you can only accept 1 of them. However the point is valid had they been dead ball. Not sure interesting question.

[Robert Goodman]

The receiving team's restraining line is always 10 yds. from the kicking team's, even if that puts it in their end zone. Fortunately you have that 10 yd. chain you can use as a visual aid.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

1. High school game. Defense recovers a fumble, and is returning for a TD. I didn't see what happened, but the offense was flagged for 3 personel fouls on the return. I don't exactly recall what the white hat said, but I believe he used the term, targeting a defenseless player. I think the fouls were about 35 or 40 yards from the goal line behind the player running with the football.

Only one live ball foul penalty could be accepted. Additional unsportsmanlike conduct could be penalized those are non-contact fouls. Dead ball fouls could also be assessed.

Yes, it's illegal to hit a player that far behind the ball who is obviously out of the play.

The fouls were enforced on the kickoff, and the kickoff was from the returning teams 15 yard line. Since there has to be a 10 yard "buffer zone", the returning team was behind their 5 yard line.

My real question is what would happen if there and been 4 personel fouls, and the ball would have spotted athe 7 1/2 yard line (?), and there wouldn't be an actual 10 yard "buffer zone".

They would have to be 2 1/2 yards deep in the end zone.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mtridge

shouldn't mater if there were 3, 4, or 10 if they all occurred during the return they are all live ball and you can only accept 1 of them. However the point is valid had they been dead ball. Not sure interesting question.

Well there is one personal foul that is enforced from the succeeding spot (9-4-8) so it might matter if it takes place during a live ball.

I probably should have made that clearer, but that is a possibility to accept more than one PF during a live ball.

Peace

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Only one live ball foul penalty could be accepted. Additional unsportsmanlike conduct could be penalized those are non-contact fouls. Dead ball fouls could also be assessed.

Yes, it's illegal to hit a player that far behind the ball who is obviously out of the play.



They would have to be 2 1/2 yards deep in the end zone.

Okay maybe another piece to the puzzle. The kicking team does the onside kick (which did take place) from the 7 1/2 yard line. If the returning team falls on the ball in the end zone is that a safety, or a touchback. I was thinking you couldn't return kicks from the end zone in FED anymore.

I guess the fouls were all dead ball since they all were enforced on the kickoff. I was leaving at the same time the officials were walking to their dressing room. I would have walked over, and asked them, but they had a policeman escorting them. Figured it wouldn't be prudent.

[Welpe]

This was a Texas HS game wasn't it? If so, we play under NCAA rules here. A kick can be returned from the end zone. If the ball was not touched by the receiving team before it hit the ground in the end zone, the ball is dead and it is a touch back.

If the ball was touched before hitting the ground in the end zone, then it is live and the kicking team can recover for a TD. If the receiving team recovers in the end zone it is a touchback since the kick is what put the ball in the end zone.

[mtridge]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well there is one personal foul that is enforced from the succeeding spot (9-4-8) so it might matter if it takes place during a live ball.

I probably should have made that clearer, but that is a possibility to accept more than one PF during a live ball.

Peace

You can only accept 1 live ball foul weather its a PF or not, but there is the case on the scoring play where it is assessed on the kick off but still still you can only give them 1 unless you call them dead ball

[MN BB Ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

They would have to be 2 1/2 yards deep in the end zone.

Would they really have to be 2.5 yards deep in the end zone? By rule as soon as the ball crosses the goal line its a touchback so why would they be required to be 10 yards off the ball in this case? Hopefully if this scenario ever occurred the receiving team coach would have his players back in the end zone and just let the ball become dead on the kick. Of course if I'm the K team coach I would instruct my kicker to kick the ball as soft as possible so as to avoid a touchback.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by MN BB Ref

Of course if I'm the K team coach I would instruct my kicker to kick the ball as soft as possible so as to avoid a touchback.

That's the best thing to do. Tap it off the tee and have K pick the ball up.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MN BB Ref

Would they really have to be 2.5 yards deep in the end zone? By rule as soon as the ball crosses the goal line its a touchback so why would they be required to be 10 yards off the ball in this case?

Because they have to be, by rule.

Hopefully if this scenario ever occurred the receiving team coach would have his players back in the end zone and just let the ball become dead on the kick. Of course if I'm the K team coach I would instruct my kicker to kick the ball as soft as possible so as to avoid a touchback.

NCAA Rules, it's dead if it hits the ground first in the EZ - agree on R's players - I'd get everyone back. K can't catch it on the fly as long as an R player is nearby.

We had one, oh, 7 years ago, where the kickoff was from the 25. And then it was kicked out of bounds at about the 10. Made for a fun discussion here regarding where to spot the ball.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

We had one, oh, 7 years ago, where the kickoff was from the 25. And then it was kicked out of bounds at about the 10. Made for a fun discussion here regarding where to spot the ball.

That's fun. No 30 yard placement possible so 5 yards and rekick or 5 yard tack on would be the two options.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mtridge

You can only accept 1 live ball foul weather its a PF or not, but there is the case on the scoring play where it is assessed on the kick off but still still you can only give them 1 unless you call them dead ball

That does not apply to the contacting someone in the restricted area and it is not a spot foul, it is a succeeding spot foul. If there was a PF also during a live ball, then you could have both.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That's fun. No 30 yard placement possible so 5 yards and rekick or 5 yard tack on would be the two options.

It's not really clear. Both NCAA & Fed treat kicking out of bounds as a foul, and list the option of R scrimmaging a fixed distance from the previous spot alongisde possible penalties, but write that clause in such a way as to cast doubt that it's a distance penalty. (We had someone here recently invoke the "fundamental" that there are only 5-, 10-, and 15-yd. penalties.) Nevertheless, I think this should be treated as a previous spot penalty enforcement option, and therefore half the distance whenever that'd be less than the distance otherwise specified. That consider'n would (heh) kick in anywhere inside the 50 in Fed, and anywhere outside K's 40 in NCAA.