Rules questions

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

1. High school game. Defense recovers a fumble, and is returning for a TD. I didn't see what happened, but the offense was flagged for 3 personel fouls on the return. I don't exactly recall what the white hat said, but I believe he used the term, targeting a defenseless player. I think the fouls were about 35 or 40 yards from the goal line behind the player running with the football.

Only one live ball foul penalty could be accepted. Additional unsportsmanlike conduct could be penalized those are non-contact fouls. Dead ball fouls could also be assessed.

Yes, it's illegal to hit a player that far behind the ball who is obviously out of the play.

The fouls were enforced on the kickoff, and the kickoff was from the returning teams 15 yard line. Since there has to be a 10 yard "buffer zone", the returning team was behind their 5 yard line.

My real question is what would happen if there and been 4 personel fouls, and the ball would have spotted athe 7 1/2 yard line (?), and there wouldn't be an actual 10 yard "buffer zone".

They would have to be 2 1/2 yards deep in the end zone.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Only one live ball foul penalty could be accepted. Additional unsportsmanlike conduct could be penalized those are non-contact fouls. Dead ball fouls could also be assessed.

Yes, it's illegal to hit a player that far behind the ball who is obviously out of the play.



They would have to be 2 1/2 yards deep in the end zone.

Okay maybe another piece to the puzzle. The kicking team does the onside kick (which did take place) from the 7 1/2 yard line. If the returning team falls on the ball in the end zone is that a safety, or a touchback. I was thinking you couldn't return kicks from the end zone in FED anymore.

I guess the fouls were all dead ball since they all were enforced on the kickoff. I was leaving at the same time the officials were walking to their dressing room. I would have walked over, and asked them, but they had a policeman escorting them. Figured it wouldn't be prudent.

[Welpe]

This was a Texas HS game wasn't it? If so, we play under NCAA rules here. A kick can be returned from the end zone. If the ball was not touched by the receiving team before it hit the ground in the end zone, the ball is dead and it is a touch back.

If the ball was touched before hitting the ground in the end zone, then it is live and the kicking team can recover for a TD. If the receiving team recovers in the end zone it is a touchback since the kick is what put the ball in the end zone.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by Welpe

This was a Texas HS game wasn't it? If so, we play under NCAA rules here. A kick can be returned from the end zone. If the ball was not touched by the receiving team before it hit the ground in the end zone, the ball is dead and it is a touch back.

If the ball was touched before hitting the ground in the end zone, then it is live and the kicking team can recover for a TD. If the receiving team recovers in the end zone it is a touchback since the kick is what put the ball in the end zone.

Yes. Two bad teams, but a very exciting game. Losing team came back from a 33-0 score just a little into the 2nd quarter. Losing team missed making a touchdown from the 1 yard line on the last play of the game. 2 point conversion would have tied it. Final score: Grand Prairie 53 Irving 45.

[MN BB Ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

They would have to be 2 1/2 yards deep in the end zone.

Would they really have to be 2.5 yards deep in the end zone? By rule as soon as the ball crosses the goal line its a touchback so why would they be required to be 10 yards off the ball in this case? Hopefully if this scenario ever occurred the receiving team coach would have his players back in the end zone and just let the ball become dead on the kick. Of course if I'm the K team coach I would instruct my kicker to kick the ball as soft as possible so as to avoid a touchback.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by MN BB Ref

Of course if I'm the K team coach I would instruct my kicker to kick the ball as soft as possible so as to avoid a touchback.

That's the best thing to do. Tap it off the tee and have K pick the ball up.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MN BB Ref

Would they really have to be 2.5 yards deep in the end zone? By rule as soon as the ball crosses the goal line its a touchback so why would they be required to be 10 yards off the ball in this case?

Because they have to be, by rule.

Hopefully if this scenario ever occurred the receiving team coach would have his players back in the end zone and just let the ball become dead on the kick. Of course if I'm the K team coach I would instruct my kicker to kick the ball as soft as possible so as to avoid a touchback.

NCAA Rules, it's dead if it hits the ground first in the EZ - agree on R's players - I'd get everyone back. K can't catch it on the fly as long as an R player is nearby.

We had one, oh, 7 years ago, where the kickoff was from the 25. And then it was kicked out of bounds at about the 10. Made for a fun discussion here regarding where to spot the ball.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

We had one, oh, 7 years ago, where the kickoff was from the 25. And then it was kicked out of bounds at about the 10. Made for a fun discussion here regarding where to spot the ball.

That's fun. No 30 yard placement possible so 5 yards and rekick or 5 yard tack on would be the two options.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That's fun. No 30 yard placement possible so 5 yards and rekick or 5 yard tack on would be the two options.

It's not really clear. Both NCAA & Fed treat kicking out of bounds as a foul, and list the option of R scrimmaging a fixed distance from the previous spot alongisde possible penalties, but write that clause in such a way as to cast doubt that it's a distance penalty. (We had someone here recently invoke the "fundamental" that there are only 5-, 10-, and 15-yd. penalties.) Nevertheless, I think this should be treated as a previous spot penalty enforcement option, and therefore half the distance whenever that'd be less than the distance otherwise specified. That consider'n would (heh) kick in anywhere inside the 50 in Fed, and anywhere outside K's 40 in NCAA.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It's not really clear. Both NCAA & Fed treat kicking out of bounds as a foul, and list the option of R scrimmaging a fixed distance from the previous spot alongisde possible penalties, but write that clause in such a way as to cast doubt that it's a distance penalty. (We had someone here recently invoke the "fundamental" that there are only 5-, 10-, and 15-yd. penalties.) Nevertheless, I think this should be treated as a previous spot penalty enforcement option, and therefore half the distance whenever that'd be less than the distance otherwise specified. That consider'n would (heh) kick in anywhere inside the 50 in Fed, and anywhere outside K's 40 in NCAA.

Luckily, none of this opinion is in the rules.

The "take the ball 30 yards from the kick" is not a penalty walk off - it's an option of where you want to take possession designed to prevent constant re-kicks on deep out of bounds kickoffs. Without this option, R's only real option when a kick went OOB at the 5 is to make them rekick.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Nevertheless, I think this should be treated as a previous spot penalty enforcement option

But it isn't.

[Robert Goodman]

But you can't blame me for construing the 25/30 yds. from the spot provision as a penalty, when so many of you say that Fed's "additional 15 yards" in the intentional PI provisions is a penalty -- and indeed that is the way the latter is being administered. In each case the rules writers (I guess the buck stops with the editor) have, in the middle of a passage giving penalties, stuck another type of enforcement, but you're saying that in one case (Fed PI) they mean it to be a penalty (in that case a 2nd penalty enforced after the 1st), but in the other (Fed & NCAA re free kick to out of bounds) you're saying it's an enforcement option which is not to be construed as a penalty.

There are ways the language of each of these could be cleaned up to conform to the meaning that's apparently been passed down thru the officials' grapevine.

What were the other people arguing for in the case of mbcrowder's "fun discussion"?

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It's not really clear. Both NCAA & Fed treat kicking out of bounds as a foul, and list the option of R scrimmaging a fixed distance from the previous spot alongisde possible penalties, but write that clause in such a way as to cast doubt that it's a distance penalty. (We had someone here recently invoke the "fundamental" that there are only 5-, 10-, and 15-yd. penalties.) Nevertheless, I think this should be treated as a previous spot penalty enforcement option, and therefore half the distance whenever that'd be less than the distance otherwise specified. That consider'n would (heh) kick in anywhere inside the 50 in Fed, and anywhere outside K's 40 in NCAA.

[FED] It's not a distance penalty, since it's not marked off from one of the enforcement spots. It's an option for R, just like taking the ball where it goes OOB is.

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by CT1

[FED] It's not a distance penalty, since it's not marked off from one of the enforcement spots. It's an option for R, just like taking the ball where it goes OOB is.

So in that case, if it's kicked on/inside the 25, the ball would be "spotted" in the EZ, and therefore a touchback?
Is the rule intended to make it such that the ball is considered to have gone OOB at that spot?