Rules questions

[MN BB Ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

They would have to be 2 1/2 yards deep in the end zone.

Would they really have to be 2.5 yards deep in the end zone? By rule as soon as the ball crosses the goal line its a touchback so why would they be required to be 10 yards off the ball in this case? Hopefully if this scenario ever occurred the receiving team coach would have his players back in the end zone and just let the ball become dead on the kick. Of course if I'm the K team coach I would instruct my kicker to kick the ball as soft as possible so as to avoid a touchback.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by MN BB Ref

Of course if I'm the K team coach I would instruct my kicker to kick the ball as soft as possible so as to avoid a touchback.

That's the best thing to do. Tap it off the tee and have K pick the ball up.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MN BB Ref

Would they really have to be 2.5 yards deep in the end zone? By rule as soon as the ball crosses the goal line its a touchback so why would they be required to be 10 yards off the ball in this case?

Because they have to be, by rule.

Hopefully if this scenario ever occurred the receiving team coach would have his players back in the end zone and just let the ball become dead on the kick. Of course if I'm the K team coach I would instruct my kicker to kick the ball as soft as possible so as to avoid a touchback.

NCAA Rules, it's dead if it hits the ground first in the EZ - agree on R's players - I'd get everyone back. K can't catch it on the fly as long as an R player is nearby.

We had one, oh, 7 years ago, where the kickoff was from the 25. And then it was kicked out of bounds at about the 10. Made for a fun discussion here regarding where to spot the ball.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

We had one, oh, 7 years ago, where the kickoff was from the 25. And then it was kicked out of bounds at about the 10. Made for a fun discussion here regarding where to spot the ball.

That's fun. No 30 yard placement possible so 5 yards and rekick or 5 yard tack on would be the two options.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That's fun. No 30 yard placement possible so 5 yards and rekick or 5 yard tack on would be the two options.

It's not really clear. Both NCAA & Fed treat kicking out of bounds as a foul, and list the option of R scrimmaging a fixed distance from the previous spot alongisde possible penalties, but write that clause in such a way as to cast doubt that it's a distance penalty. (We had someone here recently invoke the "fundamental" that there are only 5-, 10-, and 15-yd. penalties.) Nevertheless, I think this should be treated as a previous spot penalty enforcement option, and therefore half the distance whenever that'd be less than the distance otherwise specified. That consider'n would (heh) kick in anywhere inside the 50 in Fed, and anywhere outside K's 40 in NCAA.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It's not really clear. Both NCAA & Fed treat kicking out of bounds as a foul, and list the option of R scrimmaging a fixed distance from the previous spot alongisde possible penalties, but write that clause in such a way as to cast doubt that it's a distance penalty. (We had someone here recently invoke the "fundamental" that there are only 5-, 10-, and 15-yd. penalties.) Nevertheless, I think this should be treated as a previous spot penalty enforcement option, and therefore half the distance whenever that'd be less than the distance otherwise specified. That consider'n would (heh) kick in anywhere inside the 50 in Fed, and anywhere outside K's 40 in NCAA.

Luckily, none of this opinion is in the rules.

The "take the ball 30 yards from the kick" is not a penalty walk off - it's an option of where you want to take possession designed to prevent constant re-kicks on deep out of bounds kickoffs. Without this option, R's only real option when a kick went OOB at the 5 is to make them rekick.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Nevertheless, I think this should be treated as a previous spot penalty enforcement option

But it isn't.

[Robert Goodman]

But you can't blame me for construing the 25/30 yds. from the spot provision as a penalty, when so many of you say that Fed's "additional 15 yards" in the intentional PI provisions is a penalty -- and indeed that is the way the latter is being administered. In each case the rules writers (I guess the buck stops with the editor) have, in the middle of a passage giving penalties, stuck another type of enforcement, but you're saying that in one case (Fed PI) they mean it to be a penalty (in that case a 2nd penalty enforced after the 1st), but in the other (Fed & NCAA re free kick to out of bounds) you're saying it's an enforcement option which is not to be construed as a penalty.

There are ways the language of each of these could be cleaned up to conform to the meaning that's apparently been passed down thru the officials' grapevine.

What were the other people arguing for in the case of mbcrowder's "fun discussion"?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What were the other people arguing for in the case of mbcrowder's "fun discussion"?

It was "fun" on the field. I think everyone here was nearly unanimous. The awarded spot is just that - an awarded spot, not a penalty (and no, I don't "blame you" for not knowing that). More analogous to a touchback's awarded spot than a penalty - with the obvious exception that this is not a fixed yard line but rather a distance from the kick.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It's not really clear. Both NCAA & Fed treat kicking out of bounds as a foul, and list the option of R scrimmaging a fixed distance from the previous spot alongisde possible penalties, but write that clause in such a way as to cast doubt that it's a distance penalty. (We had someone here recently invoke the "fundamental" that there are only 5-, 10-, and 15-yd. penalties.) Nevertheless, I think this should be treated as a previous spot penalty enforcement option, and therefore half the distance whenever that'd be less than the distance otherwise specified. That consider'n would (heh) kick in anywhere inside the 50 in Fed, and anywhere outside K's 40 in NCAA.

[FED] It's not a distance penalty, since it's not marked off from one of the enforcement spots. It's an option for R, just like taking the ball where it goes OOB is.

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by CT1

[FED] It's not a distance penalty, since it's not marked off from one of the enforcement spots. It's an option for R, just like taking the ball where it goes OOB is.

So in that case, if it's kicked on/inside the 25, the ball would be "spotted" in the EZ, and therefore a touchback?
Is the rule intended to make it such that the ball is considered to have gone OOB at that spot?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by jchamp

So in that case, if it's kicked on/inside the 25, the ball would be "spotted" in the EZ, and therefore a touchback?

No, it is simply not an option. They have to take the ball where it went out or enforce the 5 yard penalty and rekick. Same in NCAA however the receiving team also has the option of tacking on 5 from where it went out.