QB Under Center then Backs Out to Get Play

[golfdesigner]

NFHS Rules:
I'm sitting here watching some game films from last season in preparation for this season. I know there is a POE on illegal shifts involving the QB. I'd like to see comments on two situations:
Sit A: QB takes a step forward to go under center; a back immediately goes in motion before the QB has been set for a full second; do you have anything here?; and,
Sit B: Offense comes to LOS, O-Line goes to 3-point stance; QB goes up under center and places hands under center, after short pause, he pulls out and the QB takes a couple of steps toward sideline to "get play from O-coordinator" and both backs turn and look maybe take a step toward sidelines to "peer" at the O-coordinator; they get the play, turn back and get into their set position; QB returns under center, puts hands under center then takes snap. My question here is related to QB first going under center, placing his hands under center, then pulling out to "get the play". Do you got anything here or would this be picking nits?

[mbyron]

A: by rule, this is an illegal shift. Early in the game, I'd warn, then flag. If the QB motion causes B to encroach, I'll flag FS.

B: provided they do all this without hitting 25 seconds, deceiving B into thinking no snap is imminent, and A comes set before the snap, this is legal. There is no restriction on the QB after going under the snapper.

[HLin NC]

Do you got anything here or would this be picking nits?

Unless you construed the movement as a false start, why would you?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by golfdesigner

Sit A: QB takes a step forward to go under center; a back immediately goes in motion before the QB has been set for a full second; do you have anything here?

Not unless the ball is snapped.

[CT1]

Following a shift, all players must be set for one second before the snap. Therefore:

Situation A is an illegal shift at the snap.

Situation B is an illegal shift unless the QB stops for one second before the snap.

[Robert Goodman]

I think what needs to be gotten at in relationship to the question is simply that the QB is no different from any other team A position regarding shift rules. However, the QB may have greater opp'ty than others to simulate the start of play, so may deserve greater scrutiny w.r.t. false starts. Simulating the start of play needs to be judged on the circumstances.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

A: by rule, this is an illegal shift. Early in the game, I'd warn, then flag. If the QB motion causes B to encroach, I'll flag FS.

Not yet. They can still get set before the snap. If they don't, it's a flag at the snap.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not yet. They can still get set before the snap. If they don't, it's a flag at the snap.

True. The OP omitted to say "...and the ball is snapped..." in both plays. For the questions to have much interest, one must assume that the ball has been snapped during the motion.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

True. The OP omitted to say "...and the ball is snapped..." in both plays. For the questions to have much interest, one must assume that the ball has been snapped during the motion.

B specifically mentions the snap and when it occurs. I've seen guys flag this immediately (and then catch hell - from coaches, crew chiefs, supervisors, etc). In A, I've seen people flag this too, and then not blow it dead. Just trying to clarify.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

In A, I've seen people flag this too, and then not blow it dead. Just trying to clarify.

The penalty for the illegal movement of two players is an Illegal Shift, which is a live ball foul. There is no reason to blow the play dead, if both players (as well as the rest of the team) were to stop moving, and pause for 1 full second, before the snap, there's been no foul. It only becomes a foul if the movement continues to the snap.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

True. The OP omitted to say "...and the ball is snapped..." in both plays. For the questions to have much interest, one must assume that the ball has been snapped during the motion.

No, I think the original poster was fishing in situation A for whether it was a false start. NFL has an...uh..."interesting" supplemental note regarding a player who has put his hands under the snapper or simulates doing so by putting them on his own knees or the snapper's butt.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

No, I think the original poster was fishing in situation A for whether it was a false start. NFL has an...uh..."interesting" supplemental note regarding a player who has put his hands under the snapper or simulates doing so by putting them on his own knees or the snapper's butt.

NFL (2011-2012)

Rule 7
Section 4, Article 2

Item 4: Player Under Center. It is legal for a player who has taken a position under or behind the center to go in motion, whether he has placed his hands under center, on his knees, or on the body of the center. However, it is a false start if the action is quick and abrupt, or if the player fails to come to a complete stop prior to the ball being snapped.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The penalty for the illegal movement of two players is an Illegal Shift, which is a live ball foul. There is no reason to blow the play dead, if both players (as well as the rest of the team) were to stop moving, and pause for 1 full second, before the snap, there's been no foul. It only becomes a foul if the movement continues to the snap.

I'm aware of everything you said. What was the point?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

NFL (2011-2012)

Rule 7
Section 4, Article 2

Item 4: Player Under Center. It is legal for a player who has taken a position under or behind the center to go in motion, whether he has placed his hands under center, on his knees, or on the body of the center. However, it is a false start if the action is quick and abrupt, or if the player fails to come to a complete stop prior to the ball being snapped.

Yes, which makes one wonder why they wrote "go in motion", instead of "shift" or "participate in a shift", when it seems they outlaw his being in motion at the snap. Presumably this is because he is not "playing in a backfield position" even if he only had his hands on his knees.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm aware of everything you said. What was the point?

I may have misunderstood your comment above, "In A, I've seen people flag this too, and then not blow it dead. Just trying to clarify.", to suggest the play should be blown dead, where as rereading it might also suggest the flag being thrown immediately is premature.