Not NFHS!

[CT1]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

That is why the NFHS will never make this a live ball foul ...

I can promise you that NFHS will make this a live ball foul if it becomes a major problem at the HS level & they feel it's the only way to stop it.

Do you think NCAA really wanted to have points taken off the board? Of course not!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

That is why I put not nfhs in the title. That is why the NFHS will never make this a live ball foul (I hope) and you and I both know some are for this just because BigJohn is against it.

Whoa, now I am writing in the third person.

I think it is coming to the NF level.

And if you look at NCAA games, you hardly saw this called at all because players got into the EZ. The one time I can remember it took place was in a blowout. It is coming because someone will think it is a great idea. They have already took on rules that care over to the kickoff, this is coming too.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

My response already indicated that I wasn't ready to put the blame on the calling official. It might have been his assignor. It might have been his state association. The blame belongs to someone, though. It was a horrible call.

No, it was the exact correct call. If you choose to say it's a horrible rule, feel free. Calling this a horrible call implies you're blaming the official.

As a state finals back judge, would you have thrown the flag? As a college official, would you have thrown the flag?

Hell yes, in both cases (I officiate in Texas where this rule is the same). Why? Because I like my job and I don't tend to make ruling against my SPECIFIC instructions just because I don't like a rule.

To answer your question from a previous post, YES - this specific act is included in both the literature and the training films. This IS what they want stopped. What's more --- teams know it. If the kid didn't know it, that's on his coach. If the kid did know it, and couldn't keep himself from doing it, or chose to do it anyway - that's on him.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

That is why I put not nfhs in the title. That is why the NFHS will never make this a live ball foul (I hope) and you and I both know some are for this just because BigJohn is against it.

Not sure anyone's saying they are FOR this... just saying the NCAA is (as is Texas, and I'm assuming as is Mass). I don't like the rule either. For the same reasons you guys don't. But it IS the rule, and videos I've seen make this ruling unambiguous to this particular case. Call it or don't work.

[Spence]

I'm not a football official. Saw this story elsewhere. Coming here for clarification.

1. Is this penalty marked off from the spot of the foul?
2. I assume it can be called even if the play does not result in a TD?
3. Have you ever called or seen it called on a defender?
4. Does it only apply to the kid with the ball? We often see a QB throw his hands up in celebration while a receiver is heading to the EZ.

Any thoughts on better ways to write the rule to enforce its spirit?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Spence

1. Is this penalty marked off from the spot of the foul?

It is enforced like any other live ball foul but in this case, yes it is marked off from the spot of the foul.

2. I assume it can be called even if the play does not result in a TD?

Yes, the type of play does not matter as the foul is simply unsportsmanlike conduct.

3. Have you ever called or seen it called on a defender?

Yes, but not this year.

4. Does it only apply to the kid with the ball? We often see a QB throw his hands up in celebration while a receiver is heading to the EZ.

No it does not, it applies to all players (the live ball foul that is). In my opinion, a QB throwing his hands up is NOT unsportsmanlike conduct, just like the play in this video is not either. A QB getting in the face of a defender and taunting him would be a foul and if the ball is live, a live ball foul as well.

Any thoughts on better ways to write the rule to enforce its spirit?

Unsportsmanlike conduct is a very subjective call and efforts have been made to create consistency at the collegiate level on how to call this, there are still disagreements all the time about these calls. The biggest litmus test is that if the act is not specifically prohibited, the official has to judge whether or not the act "feels right". If not, a flag should be thrown. I have a hard time understanding what was wrong with this play.

[Larks]

STUPID RULE calling this excessive.

Next thing there will be penalties for ANY celebration....no more chest bumps...no more high fives....no more fist bumps....from now on we score and then we walk in a straight single file line to the sideline for remedial coaching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Larks

STUPID RULE calling this excessive.

Next thing there will be penalties for ANY celebration....no more chest bumps...no more high fives....no more fist bumps....from now on we score and then we walk in a straight single file line to the sideline for remedial coaching.

The reason the rule is there, is because players would do all kinds of things before getting into the EZ. They even told players a year before the game that this was coming. Now the rule is here you do not hardly see it anymore. And it appears the Mass. that uses these rules (only Texas uses them at the HS level as well) told them they want this called. The officials are following the rules. Now if someone says no fist bumps, then that is the way it goes. I do not like the rule either, but there is a reason the rule is there. Coaches have been allowing these things for years and not the gauntlet was dropped. Once again at the NCAA level the coaches are the only ones that create these rules, then they ask the officials to follow it. If you cannot call it in the high profile games, then when. I bet everyone will think twice the next time, even at the college level as this is now a national story.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Spence

I'm not a football official. Saw this story elsewhere. Coming here for clarification.

1. Is this penalty marked off from the spot of the foul?

Yes

Originally Posted by Spence

2. I assume it can be called even if the play does not result in a TD?

Yes

Originally Posted by Spence

3. Have you ever called or seen it called on a defender?

Absolutely - defenders score too.

Originally Posted by Spence

4. Does it only apply to the kid with the ball? We often see a QB throw his hands up in celebration while a receiver is heading to the EZ.

It applies to everyone. However, the videos in training all refer to the scoring player - on someone else it would have to be easily recognizable as taunting.

Originally Posted by Spence

Any thoughts on better ways to write the rule to enforce its spirit?

The rule is written the way they do want it enforced. There is no lack of clarity. The issue is that most don't like the rule.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Larks

STUPID RULE calling this excessive.

Next thing there will be penalties for ANY celebration....no more chest bumps...no more high fives....no more fist bumps....from now on we score and then we walk in a straight single file line to the sideline for remedial coaching.

I agree that it sucks that the NCAA had to go this far, and yes, I consider it an over-reaction. However - there WAS an issue that they had to react to - and players wouldn't stop because the penalty was not severe enough to stop them (15 on the kickoff? So what - at least in the players' eyes). We see taunting (what most normal people would call taunting) WAY WAY less now that the foul has been turned into a live ball foul. So ... the effect of the change worked. Unfortunately, part of the cost of the change is what we have in the OP.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Really?!?!?

The NCAA wants this behavior to end? A quick spontaneous display of emotion during a huge play? A display of emotion that is not delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed? A display not directed at an opponent that don't demean an opponent or provoke ill will? Say what you will about BJ... but he's right on this one.

I can't find a rule that makes the action illegal under NCAA rules. At the end of the day, someone exhibited extremely poor judgment in this situation. I don't know if it was the game official, the game official's assignment chair, or the MA governing body; but it was someone.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by TXMike

If you are going to flag this then you will be a very busy beaver as there are tons of defensive players you will have to start flagging for the small celebrations they perform following their tackles, pass break ups, interceptions and fumble recoveries. No wonder we saw this since one of the guiding documents on uns conduct from the rules editor says "If it feels wrong, flag it" . It opened the door to these type of "close calls".

Yep. When a defensive player makes a sack and his teammate comes up to congratulate him, that better be flagged too. I don't see how what this kid did is any worse than that. Flag the QBs too for pumping their fists after a TD pass.

Originally Posted by Welpe

No it does not, it applies to all players (the live ball foul that is). In my opinion, a QB throwing his hands up is NOT unsportsmanlike conduct, just like the play in this video is not either. A QB getting in the face of a defender and taunting him would be a foul and if the ball is live, a live ball foul as well.


I have a hard time understanding what was wrong with this play.

I am in the same boat. If this was unsportsmanlike and he supposedly taunted someone, then who did he taunt? He wasn't even looking at the defensive players and it was not prolonged or excessive in any way.

The problem I have with the "Well the coaches make the rules" thing is that in this case, these HS coaches don't make the rules. The NCAA committee does and then Massachusetts decides to use NCAA rules. The HS coaches in that state have nothing to do with what rules are put in place.

Can one of you defending this call show a video in an NCAA game this year where something this innocent is flagged? Do you HONESTLY believe that if LSU and Alabama are playing for the national championship and this happens that it will get flagged? You're full of poo poo if you really believe so.

[ajmc]

This is clearly a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. NCAA rules are pretty clear on this subject, which received a lot of attention prior to and during this season. As in most cases like this, the violation is clear and had the gesture been ignored, there would have been a justifyable howl for the penalty not being applied.

As stated above the call was correct, the mistake made was made either by the coach, for not informing his players of this prohibition, or the player for ignoring his coach's warnings.

[zm1283]

Here is one from the LSU/Florida game by the punter from LSU...

LSU punter Brad Wing flagged for taunting Florida - YouTube

At least on that one he turned toward the Florida players and held his arms out. I still think the rule is awful, but I can somewhat understand it with this play.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

That tea is $1.00. Assuming his opinion is worth 1 cent is a big stretch.

99 cents in NC.

No idea how much it is in Ohio.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by CT1

I can promise you that NFHS will make this a live ball foul if it becomes a major problem at the HS level & they feel it's the only way to stop it.

Do you think NCAA really wanted to have points taken off the board? Of course not!

Actually, I suggested this rule change to our state represntative 3 years ago. This was after the NCHSAA made this type of foul an ejectionable offense, which results in a 1 game suspension.