Not NFHS!

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You may consider it BS - but the NCAA clearly wants this behavior to END and have decided the overly strong consequence is the way to end it. If you don't call this (especially in a visible game), you won't keep your job.

Really?!?!?

The NCAA wants this behavior to end? A quick spontaneous display of emotion during a huge play? A display of emotion that is not delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed? A display not directed at an opponent that don't demean an opponent or provoke ill will? Say what you will about BJ... but he's right on this one.

I can't find a rule that makes the action illegal under NCAA rules. At the end of the day, someone exhibited extremely poor judgment in this situation. I don't know if it was the game official, the game official's assignment chair, or the MA governing body; but it was someone.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Really?!?!?

The NCAA wants this behavior to end? A quick spontaneous display of emotion during a huge play? A display of emotion that is not delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed? A display not directed at an opponent that don't demean an opponent or provoke ill will? Say what you will about BJ... but he's right on this one.

I can't find a rule that makes the action illegal under NCAA rules. At the end of the day, someone exhibited extremely poor judgment in this situation. I don't know if it was the game official, the game official's assignment chair, or the MA governing body; but it was someone.

You do not have to find it in the rulebook, the NCAA put out a lot of literature and showed video to have these things stop. Now we can debate if that is the proper call or not, but we also do not know what Massachusetts said to their officials about the issue either. They could have been more specific. The NCAA did not want diving or antics before players got into the EZ. If they did not want a rule to be ambiguous or leave it up to some judgment, why create a rule? This is why coaches should not be creating rules, they do not have to enforce them. They probably know nothing about enforcing the rules as well and you get situations like this taking place.

Peace

[HLin NC]

We've been instructed to call it when it happens, it's zero tolerance now."

- Joe Cacciatore, the assigner for officials in the Catholic Conference and Greater Boston League

That's all I need to know. If my assigner says its right, its right.

[JugglingReferee]

TOO 'in funny.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Cathedral coach Duane Sigsbury told the Globe. "If you're going to take a game away from a kid being excited because he just made the play of his life, shame on you."

[chymechowder]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

- Joe Cacciatore, the assigner for officials in the Catholic Conference and Greater Boston League

That's all I need to know. If my assigner says its right, its right.

haha, really? what if your assignor doesn't know the rules?

because that's the case here.

there is zero rules foundation for this call. for those who say there is, please point to the rule reference. I do college and MA highschool. (I'm on the same board as the assignor you quoted; I work for other assingors though.) there is nothing in ncaa Rule 9 that supports this flag.

those of you who've said there are memos or videos from the powers that be saying that this sort of thing should be flagged--can you please post one? I have never seen any literature suggesting that raising a fist in celebration = unsportsmanlike conduct.

I don't personally know the official who flagged this. but i've since spoken with officials who've said "Hey, the book says you can't raise your hand."

this is the problem. there are officials who simply don't know the rules.

so what to do? we could point out the mistake, all learn from it, and as a local board become better for the education.

or we could circle the wagons, get defensive, blame the player, blame the media, stubbornly cite rules that don't exist, or just chalk it up to a "judgment call."

ugh.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Now we can debate if that is the proper call or not, but we also do not know what Massachusetts said to their officials about the issue either. They could have been more specific.

My response already indicated that I wasn't ready to put the blame on the calling official. It might have been his assignor. It might have been his state association. The blame belongs to someone, though. It was a horrible call. That IS the debate. Any time you'd like to respond to the topic at hand, please do so. As a state finals back judge, would you have thrown the flag? As a college official, would you have thrown the flag?

If not, stop supporting it in a roundabout way.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

My response already indicated that I wasn't ready to put the blame on the calling official. It might have been his assignor. It might have been his state association. The blame belongs to someone, though. It was a horrible call. That IS the debate. Any time you'd like to respond to the topic at hand, please do so. As a state finals back judge, would you have thrown the flag? As a college official, would you have thrown the flag?

If not, stop supporting it in a roundabout way.

My state does not use NCAA Rules so this is not an issue at the HS level. Based on the information we are given this would not be something I would call without some specific guidance.

At the college level if I got specific instructions to do so, yes. If this specific situation was not said to violate the rule, then no. It appears this was part of their interpretation to outlaw this.

Remember we all work for someone and that is the premise where I am coming from. I honestly do not care either way as long as this has been the standard. And according to the article this is what the people wanted. I look at it the same way as when the Washington QB was penalized against BYU for throwing the ball in the air. The rule was clear and the interpretation was clear. The call basically affected the outcome and the officials were absolutely right while many thought it was a bad call. The problem is rules makers are not officials and come up with these rules and then it comes back in these situation. Get in the damn EZ and you will not have much to worry about. It really is that simple.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

My response already indicated that I wasn't ready to put the blame on the calling official. It might have been his assignor. It might have been his state association. The blame belongs to someone, though. It was a horrible call.

No, it was the exact correct call. If you choose to say it's a horrible rule, feel free. Calling this a horrible call implies you're blaming the official.

As a state finals back judge, would you have thrown the flag? As a college official, would you have thrown the flag?

Hell yes, in both cases (I officiate in Texas where this rule is the same). Why? Because I like my job and I don't tend to make ruling against my SPECIFIC instructions just because I don't like a rule.

To answer your question from a previous post, YES - this specific act is included in both the literature and the training films. This IS what they want stopped. What's more --- teams know it. If the kid didn't know it, that's on his coach. If the kid did know it, and couldn't keep himself from doing it, or chose to do it anyway - that's on him.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

No, it was the exact correct call. If you choose to say it's a horrible rule, feel free. Calling this a horrible call implies you're blaming the official.

Hell yes, in both cases (I officiate in Texas where this rule is the same). Why? Because I like my job and I don't tend to make ruling against my SPECIFIC instructions just because I don't like a rule.

Please point me in the direction of video/documentation supporting this call. Interestingly enough, the MIAA seems to go out of its way to imply the call was a mistake.



MIAA statement on Cathedral-Blue Hills Super Bowl
Wednesday, December 7, 2011 | Home - BostonHerald.com | High School Football
STATEMENT REGARDING DIVISION 1V-A FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP

Franklin, MA Dec. 6, 2011 - - In response to inquiries regarding an unsportsmanlike penalty called in the Division IV-A football game the Massachusetts Interscholastic Athletic Association (MIAA) issued the following statement:

The official involved reported he had determined a violation of NCAA Football Rules and Interpretations of Rule 9, Section 2 covering Unsportsmanlike Conduct Section A. He called the violation and assessed the penalty.

There is no provision in MIAA rules (or rules for any other sport at any other level) to overturn an officials’ call after a game has been concluded. Once the final whistle is sounded the game is over. (Reference – MIAA Handbook Rule #17, Page 24) The Cathedral coach chose not to challenge the call when it was made.

At the start of the season the MIAA and football officials took comprehensive measures to ensure that everyone understood this rule. In fact, the officials at this game reminded the captains and coaches that there would be zero tolerance for any unsportsmanlike actions. Likewise, this message was communicated in the pre-playoff game administrative meeting, as well as the MIAA”s Super Bowl Breakfast with coaches and captains.

Anyone may parse the language of rules and apply them as they see fit. Contest officials must familiarize themselves with the rules, both the letter and the sprit, and bring their judgment to bear in calling the game. Per the Points of Emphasis in the NCAA Rulebook: “When an official imposes a penalty or makes a decision he is simply doing his duty as he sees it. He is on the field to uphold the integrity of the game of football, and his decisions are final and conclusive and should be accepted by players and coaches.”

MIAA Philosophy reflects that high school students who participate in educational athletics learn many things from that experience including lessons that we believe will be helpful as they go forward in life. While we hope and wish they would all be from positive experiences sometimes that is not the case.

Losing a game, having an official’s call go against you, even occasionally having an officials’ mistake go against you or your team are all part of sports. Athletic officials try hard to do the best job possible but they are human. Athletes must learn to put these things behind them and move forward. During their lifetime they will experience similar situations where they feel “wronged” by a superior or authority figure and they must learn to deal with that situation.

Finally, we would hope that in people’s reaction to this situation they would consider the students and coaches at Blue Hills Regional Vocational Technical School who feel their properly won championship is being tarnished and discredited.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Interestingly enough, the MIAA seems to go out of its way to imply the call was a mistake.

Imply?

It's either a mistake or it isn't. There's nothing in this release that says it was a mistake.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Imply?

It's either a mistake or it isn't. There's nothing in this release that says it was a mistake.

He is correct--there definitely is an implication.

"The Cathedral coach chose not to challenge the call when it was made."

"[H]aving an official’s call go against you, even occasionally having an officials’ mistake go against you or your team are all part of sports. Athletic officials try hard to do the best job possible but they are human."

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Imply?

It's either a mistake or it isn't. There's nothing in this release that says it was a mistake.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Please point me in the direction of video/documentation supporting this call. Interestingly enough, the MIAA seems to go out of its way to imply the call was a mistake.

Sounds like the opposite to me. They mention several times that the teams were made to understand this rule and that they were reminded multiple times. In fact... this letter would be one of those items I'd point you to to support the call.

Otherwise, I welcome you to come to an NCAA clinic or a HS clinic in Texas or Mass - you'll get plenty of video documenting the support of this call.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Sounds like the opposite to me. They mention several times that the teams were made to understand this rule and that they were reminded multiple times. In fact... this letter would be one of those items I'd point you to to support the call.

If you honestly think that was a statement of support, we have nothing left to talk about...

[chymechowder]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

No, it was the exact correct call. If you choose to say it's a horrible rule, feel free. Calling this a horrible call implies you're blaming the official.

Hell yes, in both cases (I officiate in Texas where this rule is the same). Why? Because I like my job and I don't tend to make ruling against my SPECIFIC instructions just because I don't like a rule.

To answer your question from a previous post, YES - this specific act is included in both the literature and the training films. This IS what they want stopped. What's more --- teams know it. If the kid didn't know it, that's on his coach. If the kid did know it, and couldn't keep himself from doing it, or chose to do it anyway - that's on him.

if you have some ncaa literature that mentions this SPECIFIC ACT, I would love to see it.

not being a smart-a$$. I just have never seen it. I've seen other literature that describes other acts. and i've seen literature that urges officials NOT to flag small acts.

please post the memo I've missed and i'll gladly admit to being wrong.