high school question

two dead ball unsportmanship fould on both teams after a score. Do they offset or are both make off on the try?

[Jim S]

You mean one foul on each team?
Both fouls will be enforced.
If they happened before the RFP they both have the same options. The offended team can take the penalty on the try for point, or on the succeeding free kick. The team that fouled first will get the first option. the other team gets the second choice, and this is one time ere I get both teams to make their decision first before I give any signals. I do not give the team making the second choice the results of the first choice before they make their decision.
The only time the fouls offset is when you cannot determine who fouled first.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by Jim S

You mean one foul on each team?
Both fouls will be enforced.
If they happened before the RFP they both have the same options. The offended team can take the penalty on the try for point, or on the succeeding free kick. The team that fouled first will get the first option. the other team gets the second choice, and this is one time ere I get both teams to make their decision first before I give any signals. I do not give the team making the second choice the results of the first choice before they make their decision.
The only time the fouls offset is when you cannot determine who fouled first.

Why would you not give them all the information that they have coming to them???

[bkdow]

We did have this occur this year. I believe you have to give the second team their option because it will influence their decision. I believe that if you withhold that, you are trying to double penalize them and make them guess.

In our scenario, they ended up offsetting, but you could have one take it on the try and the other take it on the following kick off. Unfortunately, it took too long to administer and get the decision made. Also, we did mark off both 15 yard penalties even though it offset.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jim S

You mean one foul on each team?
Both fouls will be enforced.
If they happened before the RFP they both have the same options. The offended team can take the penalty on the try for point, or on the succeeding free kick. The team that fouled first will get the first option. the other team gets the second choice, and this is one time ere I get both teams to make their decision first before I give any signals. I do not give the team making the second choice the results of the first choice before they make their decision.
The only time the fouls offset is when you cannot determine who fouled first.

Here you mean the opponent of the team that fouled first, right?

Here I disagree: the team with second option is entitled to all available information when making its choice. Otherwise, you're eliminating the distinction between fouling first and second.

[Jim S]

Where do you find such a statement that the second team in this situation has a "right" to know what the other team is going to do? They don't get to have an advantage because they were the FIRST to foul. Otherewise you are giving them an advantage that the other team does not get, the information as to what the second team is going to do before they have to make their decision.
In this case to be fair to BOTH teams you have them make their choices without benefit of knoledge of what the other team is going to do.
In the case of the single foul you give ALL pertinent information.

[BIG UMP]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Here you mean the opponent of the team that fouled first, right?

Here I disagree: the team with second option is entitled to all available information when making its choice. Otherwise, you're eliminating the distinction between fouling first and second.

Agreed. The second team making a decision may know the decision. I find no rule stating they can't have this information.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Jim S

Where do you find such a statement that the second team in this situation has a "right" to know what the other team is going to do? They don't get to have an advantage because they were the FIRST to foul. Otherewise you are giving them an advantage that the other team does not get, the information as to what the second team is going to do before they have to make their decision.
In this case to be fair to BOTH teams you have them make their choices without benefit of knoledge of what the other team is going to do.
In the case of the single foul you give ALL pertinent information.

I strongly believe that if you float this opinion up your chain of command, you will be summarily disabused of this notion.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jim S

Where do you find such a statement that the second team in this situation has a "right" to know what the other team is going to do?

What do you mean "going to do"? The other team has already made their choice of how to enforce the penalty. It is now something that the other team has done. For some reason you don't want to give the team a information that they need.

Dead ball fouls are penalized in the order which they occur. So the correct way to do it would be to enforce the first penalty first. Tell the captain what his options are and also tell him that his team also fouled and that the other team will be given options on how to enforce the penalty also.

Now you go to the other team and give them all the information needed for them to make a decision (where ball will be, what down it will be, how far away the line to gain is, which team will have the ball, clock status). Also remember that the rules require you to give this information to the captain. You can't just make up your own ways of doing things.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I strongly believe that if you float this opinion up your chain of command, you will be summarily disabused of this notion.

Agreed. You are not "giving them an advantage that the other team does not get". You are simply giving them their options and stating what the result of each choice will be so they understand the ramifications of their choice.

[bkdow]

I believe that if we wanted to administer it strictly by the book, you would administer the entire penalty of the first penalty then turn to the captain of the second penalty and administer it. We are trying to save time and make it look smooth by "lumping" the administrations together.

You want to say that you see no place where they have the right know. I would ask where in the rule book do you see any precident for withholding information from a coach in any circumstance, ruling, or administration. I think run the risk of being accused of being power-hungry by withholding anything like this.