Proper spot and down?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If someone clearly got to it first, and you lost sight of it because it was sandwiched between the front of his frame and the ground, and not because of parallax, then yeah. Whatever other ruling you make -- because you can't see the ball as players struggle over it, and therefore don't know when it's dead -- will be arbitrary. You can make up a game like the one you described wherein you allow some players to continue to wrestle over it while you gradually eliminate others, but that has less cx with actual football than does my assertion of dead ball as soon as someone sandwiches it with the ground.

I have never, in over 30 years of officiating, seen a player sandwich a ball to the ground with the front of his frame.

Tell you what. Take your kids out every day this week and have them flop directly on the football with the front of their frame. Try it with the ball at rest, then try it with the ball bounding about. Shoot, you can even have the kids standing directly over the ball at rest while they flop down on it.

Then, get back to us on how many times the ball stayed beneath them.

Also include the tally of the number of broken ribs your guys suffered by teaching this ball recovery method.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by asdf

I have never, in over 30 years of officiating, seen a player sandwich a ball to the ground with the front of his frame.

Tell you what. Take your kids out every day this week and have them flop directly on the football with the front of their frame. Try it with the ball at rest, then try it with the ball bounding about. Shoot, you can even have the kids standing directly over the ball at rest while they flop down on it.

Then, get back to us on how many times the ball stayed beneath them.

Also include the tally of the number of broken ribs your guys suffered by teaching this ball recovery method.

I don't teach it, but it happens. If it does squirt out, it doesn't squirt far, so it stays close to the body of that player, and a pileup results.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I don't teach it, but it happens. If it does squirt out, it doesn't squirt far, so it stays close to the body of that player, and a pileup results.

So your idea of possession is "it stays close to the body of the player"???

WOW

This is A-11 like thinking.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by asdf

So your idea of possession is "it stays close to the body of the player"???

No, the idea is to prevent it from being live and close to his body. I'm describing the situation that almost inevitably occurs if you allow the ball to remain live after a player falls prone on it. The ball hardly ever moves far from that spot, so you have that player's body and a bunch of others piled up around it, and will wind up taking a guess as to who has possession, or following some other non-football procedure to decide it.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

No, the idea is to prevent it from being live and close to his body. I'm describing the situation that almost inevitably occurs if you allow the ball to remain live after a player falls prone on it. The ball hardly ever moves far from that spot, so you have that player's body and a bunch of others piled up around it, and will wind up taking a guess as to who has possession, or following some other non-football procedure to decide it.

Whoever has it when we unpile 'em gets it. That's the way the game is played. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by CT1

Whoever has it when we unpile 'em gets it. That's the way the game is played. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Also,

The ball isn't dead until the person in possession of the ball has part of his body other than hand or foot contacting the ground. If we can't see the ball, we don't know if someone has possession of it and therefore we don't know if the ball is dead.

We aren't allowed to assume that the ball laying under a mass of humanity is actually possessed by someone. We have to witness the possession.

Ever hear "See the ball!"?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Also,

The ball isn't dead until the person in possession of the ball has part of his body other than hand or foot contacting the ground. If we can't see the ball, we don't know if someone has possession of it and therefore we don't know if the ball is dead.

We aren't allowed to assume that the ball laying under a mass of humanity is actually possessed by someone. We have to witness the possession.

Ever hear "See the ball!"?

We are also discussing this with someone that does not officiate. He does not know any better because he has never had to make that decision on his own. And he does not realize the scrutiny personally of what must be done and why you cannot just kill the clock when someone is on the ground with the ball near them. He even does not realize that there are times before the pile we can and do rule on possession, but just like anything in life we like to confirm that decision by not having another person show up with the ball. That is one of the reasons you see on TV games where players start pointing before the pile is unraveled as the officials are likely in some cases communicating what they have. Robert things if we rule on possession that dramatically players will stop going after the ball. That does not happen or is not very realistic.

He is just another coach that thinks the whistle is a dramatic device that automatically stops everything. This is why we hear coaches say, "But you did not blow the whistle."

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

The ball isn't dead until the person in possession of the ball has part of his body other than hand or foot contacting the ground. If we can't see the ball, we don't know if someone has possession of it and therefore we don't know if the ball is dead.

We aren't allowed to assume that the ball laying under a mass of humanity is actually possessed by someone. We have to witness the possession.

Therefore you're not allowed to unpile them until you see someone in possession of the ball. You can't interfere with play of a live ball, can you?

BTW, the part-of-the-body-other-than-hand-or-foot business hardly ever comes into play in pileup situations. Even if he's supported off the ground by bodies of other players, his progress is nearly always stopped.