Proper spot and down?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by asdf

I have never, in over 30 years of officiating, seen a player sandwich a ball to the ground with the front of his frame.

Tell you what. Take your kids out every day this week and have them flop directly on the football with the front of their frame. Try it with the ball at rest, then try it with the ball bounding about. Shoot, you can even have the kids standing directly over the ball at rest while they flop down on it.

Then, get back to us on how many times the ball stayed beneath them.

Also include the tally of the number of broken ribs your guys suffered by teaching this ball recovery method.

I don't teach it, but it happens. If it does squirt out, it doesn't squirt far, so it stays close to the body of that player, and a pileup results.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I don't teach it, but it happens. If it does squirt out, it doesn't squirt far, so it stays close to the body of that player, and a pileup results.

So your idea of possession is "it stays close to the body of the player"???

WOW

This is A-11 like thinking.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by asdf

So your idea of possession is "it stays close to the body of the player"???

No, the idea is to prevent it from being live and close to his body. I'm describing the situation that almost inevitably occurs if you allow the ball to remain live after a player falls prone on it. The ball hardly ever moves far from that spot, so you have that player's body and a bunch of others piled up around it, and will wind up taking a guess as to who has possession, or following some other non-football procedure to decide it.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

No, the idea is to prevent it from being live and close to his body. I'm describing the situation that almost inevitably occurs if you allow the ball to remain live after a player falls prone on it. The ball hardly ever moves far from that spot, so you have that player's body and a bunch of others piled up around it, and will wind up taking a guess as to who has possession, or following some other non-football procedure to decide it.

Whoever has it when we unpile 'em gets it. That's the way the game is played. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by CT1

Whoever has it when we unpile 'em gets it. That's the way the game is played. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Also,

The ball isn't dead until the person in possession of the ball has part of his body other than hand or foot contacting the ground. If we can't see the ball, we don't know if someone has possession of it and therefore we don't know if the ball is dead.

We aren't allowed to assume that the ball laying under a mass of humanity is actually possessed by someone. We have to witness the possession.

Ever hear "See the ball!"?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Also,

The ball isn't dead until the person in possession of the ball has part of his body other than hand or foot contacting the ground. If we can't see the ball, we don't know if someone has possession of it and therefore we don't know if the ball is dead.

We aren't allowed to assume that the ball laying under a mass of humanity is actually possessed by someone. We have to witness the possession.

Ever hear "See the ball!"?

We are also discussing this with someone that does not officiate. He does not know any better because he has never had to make that decision on his own. And he does not realize the scrutiny personally of what must be done and why you cannot just kill the clock when someone is on the ground with the ball near them. He even does not realize that there are times before the pile we can and do rule on possession, but just like anything in life we like to confirm that decision by not having another person show up with the ball. That is one of the reasons you see on TV games where players start pointing before the pile is unraveled as the officials are likely in some cases communicating what they have. Robert things if we rule on possession that dramatically players will stop going after the ball. That does not happen or is not very realistic.

He is just another coach that thinks the whistle is a dramatic device that automatically stops everything. This is why we hear coaches say, "But you did not blow the whistle."

Peace

[Rich]

We had a play last night on a wet field where a fumbled ball was fallen on in the backfield not once, but twice -- and both times the ball came out on the side of the player I could not see. Naturally, since I didn't see the ball, I didn't blow the whistle. I was the white hat. Since the LJ (on the other side, who would've seen the ball) didn't blow the whistle, I knew it was either loose or in a pile.

All of a sudden I'm in a sprint for the goal line. The ball ended up in a defender's hands and it's off to the races.

There's a reason why we don't hurry to blow the whistle. Only bad things can happen when we're quick to a whistle.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

The ball isn't dead until the person in possession of the ball has part of his body other than hand or foot contacting the ground. If we can't see the ball, we don't know if someone has possession of it and therefore we don't know if the ball is dead.

We aren't allowed to assume that the ball laying under a mass of humanity is actually possessed by someone. We have to witness the possession.

Therefore you're not allowed to unpile them until you see someone in possession of the ball. You can't interfere with play of a live ball, can you?

BTW, the part-of-the-body-other-than-hand-or-foot business hardly ever comes into play in pileup situations. Even if he's supported off the ground by bodies of other players, his progress is nearly always stopped.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Robert things if we rule on possession that dramatically players will stop going after the ball.

No, I don't think that's going to happen. What will happen is that the ensuing pileup will be irrelevant, and you won't have to take a guess as to who actually gained possession and when the ball became dead.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

No, I don't think that's going to happen. What will happen is that the ensuing pileup will be irrelevant, and you won't have to take a guess as to who actually gained possession and when the ball became dead.

Well I just watched the end of the Michigan State-OSU game on an onside kick and the ball was not clearly judged until the pile took place. And the first player that landed on the ball as you said, the ball popped out immediately and all you could see before the pile were arms and bodies. Not sure who any of the officials could have giving the ball to and that was in slow motion. So again what you just said makes no sense what so ever and cannot be done in live time often with everyone diving for the ball and the ball did not have possession with one person falling on it clearly. I think you should just stick to coaching or become an official and go right ahead and make those rulings and see how fast you are not working at certain levels.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I just watched the end of the Michigan State-OSU game on an onside kick and the ball was not clearly judged until the pile took place. And the first player that landed on the ball as you said, the ball popped out immediately and all you could see before the pile were arms and bodies.

If all you could see were arms and bodies, how do you know the ball popped out immediately?

[APG]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If all you could see were arms and bodies, how do you know the ball popped out immediately?

Because it was clearly shown on my television screen?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Because it was clearly shown on my television screen?

So we have a difference between what you could see on TV and what someone else could see. All sorts of things are brought up in this forum based on what someone could later learn on video, with slow motion, etc. I want an answer from the other guy, who couldn't see anything but arms & bodies, who I gather was at the field.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If all you could see were arms and bodies, how do you know the ball popped out immediately?

You do realize that I am talking about a TV game right? You do realize this was just one example right? You do realize if this happens on replay in slow motion often that this likely happens in other games right? BTW, I have seen the ball pop out when a player tries to fall on it initially all the time in my games. That ball does funny things sometimes, which is why your position is silly.

Peace

[Forksref]

I haven't had an IW since I started dropping the whistle from my mouth at the snap (about 5 years ago). Now, as a white hat, I don't even start with it in my mouth. It's a hard habit to break and we still have a few guys in our association who resist dropping it at the snap. I was mentoring a rookie on Saturday and I got him to start dropping it. Yea!