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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 02:45am
KWH KWH is offline
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Cool

OK. I would appreciate it if those of you out there who know the answer to this one please refrain from answering until Jim (Rulebook) Nayzium gets a crack at making the correct ruling on this play.

Thank you


SITUATION:
4 and 5 on the 50 yard line.
Score A 7 - B 9.
0:02 Remaining in the 4th quarter

PLAY:
A-1 drops back to pass and finds himself under heavy presure so he elects to run. A-1 runs all the way to the B5 yard line where he is trapped and it is apparent he won't make it to B's endzone so...
He throws a forward pass to A-2 (Number 77) who catches the ball while standing in B's endzone.
The Back Judge throws his flag and signals a touchdown.
Time expires during the down!

What penalty(s) have occurred?
What are the options offered to the offended captain?
How are any penalties enforced?

[Edited by KWH on Oct 30th, 2002 at 09:40 AM]
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 04:46pm
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Jim we are all dying to know if we have the correct answer ourselves. Please reply
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 07:51pm
KWH KWH is offline
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Talking Marty, I love ya man by your time running out! Enquiring minds want to know!

Quote:
Originally posted by BoBo
Jim we are all dying to know if we have the correct answer ourselves. Please reply

I am thinking that by now JimNayzium has ripped his Case Book and Rule Book apart, Looked at every picture in the funny book, threw the Officials Manual away, slammed his clipboard on he gound, and glanced through the Handbook (in which he found all kinds of interesting things except what he is looking for.) He then made eleven phone calls to non of which helped him avoid the inevitable...

Don't worry Bobo. I will give him until after my Game on Wednesday night. If JimNayzium has not attempted an answer by then I will provide the correct ruling on the play at that time. I'll put up the correct ruling around 11:00 pm PST on Wednesday night.

Come on JimNazium, over 100 people have checked this post looking for your answer. You are holding up the game!!!

Peace

[Edited by KWH on Oct 30th, 2002 at 09:42 AM]
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 08:45pm
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Re: Marty, I love ya man by your time running out! Enquiring minds want to know!

Quote:
Originally posted by KWH
Quote:
Originally posted by BoBo
Jim we are all dying to know if we have the correct answer ourselves. Please reply

I am thinking that by now Jim (aka Coach Marty) has ripped his Case Book and Rule Book apart, Looked at every picture in the funny book, threw the Officials Manual away, slammed his clipboard on he gound, and glanced through the Handbook (in which he found all kinds of interesting things except what he is looking for.) He then made eleven phone calls to non of which helped him avoid the inevitable...

Don't worry Bobo. I will give him until after my Game on Wednesday night. If Jim (aka Coach Marty) has not attempted an answer by then I will provide the correct ruling on the play at that time. I'll put up the correct ruling around 11:00 pm PST on Wednesday night.

Come on Jim/Marty, over 100 people have checked this post looking for your answer. You are holding up the game!!!

Peace
Actually, I think most of us that have checked this post are wondering what your problem is with the Coach. He comes here in a professional manner and asks legitimate questions and deserves the same respect. I don't know if you have some personal vendetta against him or what, but nobody cares. He is being very professional by not responding to your goating, I'm afraid I would have had to put you in your place by now.
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 09:10pm
KWH KWH is offline
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Re: Re: Marty, I love ya man by your time running out! Enquiring minds want to know!

Quote:
Originally posted by devdog69

Actually, I think most of us that have checked this post are wondering what your problem is with the Coach. He comes here in a professional manner and asks legitimate questions and deserves the same respect. I don't know if you have some personal vendetta against him or what, but nobody cares. He is being very professional by not responding to your goating, I'm afraid I would have had to put you in your place by now. [/B]
I do see your point Devdog. But hear me out.
Jim said on another post that a period should end on any offensive foul. He rambled on an on about why this should be the case.
I have given him an offensive foul on the last play of a period to consider.
Have I given him some jabbing? Yes.
Do I have a personal vendetta? No.
Does he take jabs at me and others on this forum? Yes he does.
If you feel he has been professional on all his posts, I suggest it is possible you haven't read all of his posts.
If you feel I haven't been professional in all my posts to him, then yes since that is probably the case and I will lighten up a little. And I suspect Jim will respond in kind.


[Edited by KWH on Oct 29th, 2002 at 08:18 PM]
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Old Tue Oct 29, 2002, 10:19pm
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You da man, Jim!

Drop me an email when ya get a chance. I no longer have yours from our correspondence last year.
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Old Wed Oct 30, 2002, 04:30am
KWH KWH is offline
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Thumbs up And the correct ruling is...

Quote:
Originally posted by KWH


SITUATION:
4 and 5 on the 50 yard line.
Score A 7 - B 9.
0:02 Remaining in the 4th quarter

PLAY:
A-1 drops back to pass and finds himself under heavy presure so he elects to run. A-1 runs all the way to the B5 yard line where he is trapped and it is apparent he won't make it to B's endzone so...
He throws a forward pass to A-2 (Number 77) who catches the ball while standing in B's endzone.
The Back Judge throws his flag and signals a touchdown.
Time expires during the down!

What penalty(s) have occurred?
What are the options offered to the offended captain?
How are any penalties enforced?

To rule on this play under NFHS rules we have to determine what fouls A has committed.
On the surface it appears their are several so lets take a look at every possible foul and enforcment:

Illegal Forward Pass: YES, because the pass was thrown from beyond the neutral zone. NFHS 7-5-2b

Ineligble downfield (Number 77)? NO, as it is only illegal for an ineligble to be downfield during a legal forward pass, and we didn't have a legal forward pass. NFHS 7-5-12

Forward Pass Interference (Number 77)? NO, as Forward Pass Interference can only occur during a legal forward pass, and we didn't have a legal forward pass. NFHS 7-5-7

Loss of Down? NO; Loss of down is not applicable in this situation. Even though loss of down is part of the penalty for Illegal Forward Pass the penalty for Illegal Forward Pass after enforcment still leaves A beyond the line to gain. Remember the loss of down part of a penalty has no significance since the succeeding spot is beyond the line to gain and a new series is awarded. NFHS 5-2-2 and 5-2-5f and Casebook 5.2.2 SITUATION B

Is the Unfair Act Rule applicable? NO; A1 did not commit any act which has no specific rule coverage. 9-9-1

Did the team attempt to conserve or consume time illegally?
No; while some may argue that A1 did attempt to conserve time illegally, by definition he did not perform any illegal act which attempted to conserve time. NFHS 3-6-3

So...

The result of the play was a Touchdown for A.
The only penalty we have is an Illegal Forward Pass.

Therefore,
The options for B are:
Delination of the penalty and taking the result of the play will award A 6 points and the game is over. A wins by a score of A 13 B 9 (The extra point would not be attempted unless required as part of your state tie-breaking system.)
OR...
Acceptance of the penalty placing the Ball on the B10 yard line (where it would be First and Goal for A) and extending the period for one untimed down.

Since under NFHS Rules a period can not end on ANY accepted live ball penalty and must be extended by an untimed down (NFHS 3-3-3a and Football Fundamentals II, 5 (Page 67)), in this case B has no realistic alternative but to accept the penalty and give A one untimed down.

If either team were to take a timeout at this point I would (as White Hat) definitly go explain the situation to both coaches. In the event neither team took a timeout I would probably take an officials timeout and go explain it to both coaches.

It is highly probable that the last play of the game will be a 27 yard field goal by A and the final score will be A 10 B 9.

If you got this one correct, good job.

Please note
If I offended anyone with my attempts at humorous jabbs toward JimNayzium (including JimNayzium) please accept my humble apologies, from here on out I'll just stick to the rules...

Peace







[Edited by KWH on Oct 30th, 2002 at 04:22 AM]
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Old Wed Oct 30, 2002, 08:53am
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Hey guys, I have a big week this week and have not read any new posts until Wednesday Morning at 8 am.

While I think KWH is hard on me at times, I have not been offended yet. That is of course, after assuming he took "Coach Marty" out of one of my posts and has done any research into who I actually am.

Anyway, I was reading all the posts up to the answer and was excited to have the chance to prove myself, but the answer was posted before the stated deadline, and of course I did not have any time to think about it.

As far as my answer to the question without using any help, and by the way, our association does not issue casebooks so I do not have or use one, (another indication of why my refs are not very good), but after reading your situation, with the new knowledge that the game cannot end on an accepted penalty, I would have assumed that the penalty was:

Illegal man down field - I would not have known the subtle differences between the pass being downfield or not....good insight here for me to learn.

I would have known that a loss of down penalty is only relavent in relation to the line to gain from the succeeding spot.

This whole situation is wonderful KWH. It will cause me to coach a little differently on desperation situations. We always coach the player to not go down with the ball, but we mean to fumble or throw a lateral.

We now will coach this situation and send a linemen or anyone for that matter to the endzone and throw it to him on purpose to set up a field goal....i think this is wonderful KWH. thank you.

I am not being sarcastic either..please hear that.

I probably would have responded incorrectly to your original question if that helps you a little. but as for this last thing it is awesome.

We have a play that we have run successfully against prevent defenses where we lateral twice, well now we will lateral once and chunk downfield and score and then get one more play.....

my question is this....what if we do this ON the untimed down...will we get another one? ha ... I now love this rule, because i know no other coaches realize this, i wil now have an edge...thanks KWH.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 30, 2002, 10:47am
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Cool Scoring is the key

Jim,
This play only works if you score, otherwise the defense can just decline the penalty to end the game. If the same play occurs during the untimed down and the penalty is accepted, there will be another untimed down.
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Old Wed Oct 30, 2002, 11:42am
KWH KWH is offline
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JimNayzium
[B]
I am glad you are not offended and I have removed your name from the threads as you requested. I did no research into finding your real name, you used it it one of your threads.

I had a schedule change and after reading and considering DevDog69 thread I assumed you were not going to respond so I posted the ruling early. I'll make it up to you by posting another one.

If you use the play to win a game, then you will have done so by the rules. I might suggest you request a coach/referee conference if it is not enforced as I described.

If you don't own a Casebook spend the $6.50 and order one! In my opinion the Casebook is mandatory for any "student of the game!" Plus the Casebook is cover to cover full of plays and there rulings. (I think this book is for you!)
I would also suggest the "Simplified and Illustrated Rules Book" another $6.50 but it is full of pictures, and the "Football Handbook" (Football philosophy and fundamentals) another $6.50
The "Officials Manual" may or may not appeal to you.

Remember the penalty will always be enforced from the spot of the FIRST illegal forward pass and the key is the play must result in a touchdown to extend the period. Of course if you are trailing by 9 or more points it won't do you much good.

To answer your question YES if you this happens again on the untimed by rule you would get another play. However, Be ye forewarned that you are now walking the fine line of Rule 9-9-3 which IS Referee discrecionary!

Good luck, I am glad you like the play.
I hope this makes up for my being disrepectul towards you as some have stated.

Peace


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