Excessive celebration-Pinstripe Bowl

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

We've been told if we "feel" ok with the action, then let it go. What I feel is ok, may not feel ok with another official. Players and coaches need to understand that it will never be called the same so just don't put the official in a position to judge any action that could be deemed illegal.

I'm sorry but that's just unacceptable. If this rule is going to work then the powers that be need to develop very specific guidelines as to what is allowed, what isn't, and stick to it. As officials we are always working to be consistent. To accept inconsistency in this situation, when 95% of the time this call involves scoring opportunities is total BS.

I'm usually not critical of officials in such situation but there's no way to defend that call. It's obvious that the two officials didn't take any of the bullet points listed in the memo that TXMike posted into account. If they did, no flag would have been thrown.

Yes, coaches need to coach their players not to put themselves in a position where it can be called. But if I salute in one game and it's not called, it shouldn't be called if I salute in the next game.

The "how does it feel" mentality is BS and makes the officials the bad guys.

[bisonlj]

Keep in mind the salutes in the other games may not have been seen by an official. Just because a camera caught it doesn't mean an official caught it. I saw a throat slash by the UT QB on film that would have been an easy foul if the official had seen it. It happened long enough after the play the R had probably stopped watching the QB. That also leads to the inconsistent application of this rule.

[amusedofficial]

Do you think maybe after scoring that late in a bowl game he was, in fact, saluting the fans who were still with his team, and who were cheering to the end when their team needed a big play?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Keep in mind the salutes in the other games may not have been seen by an official. Just because a camera caught it doesn't mean an official caught it. I saw a throat slash by the UT QB on film that would have been an easy foul if the official had seen it. It happened long enough after the play the R had probably stopped watching the QB. That also leads to the inconsistent application of this rule.

Understood. But we saw three salutes, a double throat slash, and a belt buckle pull, yet not one was flagged. Now, I can buy 1 or 2 not being seen but all 5?

Now, had the K-State salute not been flagged, I wouldn't have though anything about any of those except the throat slash. I would have passed on all but the slash.

But if other Big Ten crews are flagging those, then this Big Ten crew needs to work on their dead ball officiating.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I'm sorry but that's just unacceptable. If this rule is going to work then the powers that be need to develop very specific guidelines as to what is allowed, what isn't, and stick to it.

Yes, coaches need to coach their players not to put themselves in a position where it can be called. But if I salute in one game and it's not called, it shouldn't be called if I salute in the next game. :

Your expectations are just not realistic. Trying to develop a never ending list of specifically what will, and what will not, be tolerated is insane because of the endless creativity involved, and it's doubtful anyone would be able to remember the entire list. This "celebration nonsense", and the higher level of theatrics produced by it is a fairly new phenomenom that it's simply easier and more manageable to try and eliminate, rather than monitor and control.

As for "consistency", the goal is consistency with YOUR reaction within YOUR game. Looking for consistency, to the gnat's eyelash level, on a wider scale is a total illusion, and won't be achievable until we attain widespread and consistent perfection (which is a long way off).

If a player has done something stupid in one game and gotten away with it, that does not give him license to continue being stupid. Simply put, what the player, his coach, his parents and his fans consider acceptable, doesn't matter a lick. What counts is what the individual official viewing the behavior considers acceptable, and unless you are absolutely sure what each field official is thinking, the safest, surest bet is to give the ball to the nearest official after a score, and retreat to the team box before celebrating.

That was a practice, that worked pretty well for the first 100+ years of football.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Your expectations are just not realistic. Trying to develop a never ending list of specifically what will, and what will not, be tolerated is insane because of the endless creativity involved, and it's doubtful anyone would be able to remember the entire list. This "celebration nonsense", and the higher level of theatrics produced by it is a fairly new phenomenom that it's simply easier and more manageable to try and eliminate, rather than monitor and control.

As for "consistency", the goal is consistency with YOUR reaction within YOUR game. Looking for consistency, to the gnat's eyelash level, on a wider scale is a total illusion, and won't be achievable until we attain widespread and consistent perfection (which is a long way off).

If a player has done something stupid in one game and gotten away with it, that does not give him license to continue being stupid. Simply put, what the player, his coach, his parents and his fans consider acceptable, doesn't matter a lick. What counts is what the individual official viewing the behavior considers acceptable, and unless you are absolutely sure what each field official is thinking, the safest, surest bet is to give the ball to the nearest official after a score, and retreat to the team box before celebrating.

That was a practice, that worked pretty well for the first 100+ years of football.

Whether my expectations are realistic or not, there's no way you can justify a salute being flagged as USC in one game and in the very next game, on the same network, a crew from the same conference ignores the exact same act three times.

There's nothing new about about this "celebration nonsense" as you describe it. It's been in the game for years. Ever heard of Billy "White Shoes" Johnson? He was knee wobbling when I was a kid in the 70's. Players were spiking the ball and dunking it over the cross bar in the 80's. The "Icky Shuffle" is 20 years old. This isn't new and it's not going away.

This situation is broken and needs to be fixed. Players, coaches, fans, and even fellow officials should be subject to the whims of a particular official is feeling on a given day. If the guidelines presented don't work, and they obviously don't, then new guidelines need to be created. The NCAA has the technological ability to issue clarifications and guidelines to officials and coaches on a daily basis. As it is, the NCAA is making the officials the whipping boy as opposed to taken responsibility for the enforcement. The way the rules are currently written, the guidelines given, and the NCAA's "it's up to the official" mentality, it all places the officials in the line of fire from fans, coaches, players and the media.

It simply is not fair to officials.

[ottobabble]

Allegedly, the calling official ran up to the player and said to him "Wrong choice buddy" and then flagged him. Sounds a lot like a "I gotcha!". Not very professional in my opinion.

I still do not understand why the "diamond" gesture, which was displayed a lot longer by the Syracuse player is not a foul but the brief salute is.

[JasonTX]

According to this article, Randy Edsall, head coach of Connecticut and chairman of the rules committee agrees the call was the correct. Officials have been instructed to be very strict. It was mentioned that each play will be reviewed as well as each official. Perhaps there will be some discipline to the other 3 calls that were apparently missed.

NCAA officials coordinator backs calls in Pinstripe, Music City Bowls - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

[rulesmaven]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

According to this article, Randy Edsall, head coach of Connecticut and chairman of the rules committee agrees the call was the correct.

Well said by a man who still has a game to play this year and knows officials might be reading.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by rulesmaven

Well said by a man who still has a game to play this year and knows officials might be reading.

Very true. We'll see how supportive he is if his player gets flagged for the same action.

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Very true. We'll see how supportive he is if his player gets flagged for the same action.

Uhhhhh UCONN is playing Oklahoma right? May not have to worry about any celebration penalties by UCONN

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

According to this article, Randy Edsall, head coach of Connecticut and chairman of the rules committee agrees the call was the correct. Officials have been instructed to be very strict. It was mentioned that each play will be reviewed as well as each official. Perhaps there will be some discipline to the other 3 calls that were apparently missed.

NCAA officials coordinator backs calls in Pinstripe, Music City Bowls - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

We already know the throat slash in the UNC-UT game should have been flagged as 9-2-1a specifically addresses it.

I wonder what Parry and Edsall think of the three salutes and belt buckle that were not called in that game.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by sloth

First of all, the Big 10 bashing shows ignorance at it's finest. This is about individual officials making a judgement call in an area of the game that is very subjective. I'm not passing judgement on this call, but I will say this...in a situtaion like this I'm thinking about the pluses and minuses about throwing that flag. If the crew overlooks this fould, no one one notices. SportsCenter isn't running stories about how the officials blew a celebration foul and this thread wouldn't exist. The fact that we are talking about this, makes me think that it should have been passed on. We need to strive to be unseen and un-noticed in our craft...now sometimes thats imposible...but I think on a minor celebration foul late in a game...we have to really think about how we are going to handle this....espically with the enforcment changes for 2011.

I think this situation can lead to a lot of discussion in the off-season with the changes I mentioned to USC's being live ball fouls in 2011.

I wouldn't have made the call myself but I also don't think about how Sportscenter or other officials will perceive my call either before I make it. Every year we have one of these calls that gets all the attention and that has been pretty consistent each year.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by sloth

If the crew overlooks this fould, no one one notices. SportsCenter isn't running stories about how the officials blew a celebration foul and this thread wouldn't exist. The fact that we are talking about this, makes me think that it should have been passed on.

People complain about things which are not called as fouls all the time. Officials get calls 100% correct and ESPN runs stories saying they are wrong. Your logic doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by sloth

We need to strive to be unseen and un-noticed in our craft

I don't know why people say thing all the time; it is just some stupid statement that you are likely to hear from some sportscaster. How about striving to officiate the game properly? That may mean making a big call at the end of the game which focuses attention on yourself.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by sloth

My job (as I see it) is to (1) insure player safety (2) insure integrity of the game is upheld (FS/shifts/motion/more than 11 players, etc) and (3) insure that one team does not gain an unfair advantage over another team during a play situation (holding and point of attack/DPI/OPI, etc).

I notice that "being unseen" is not part of the job as you see it.