Excessive celebration-Pinstripe Bowl

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I'm sorry but that's just unacceptable. If this rule is going to work then the powers that be need to develop very specific guidelines as to what is allowed, what isn't, and stick to it.

Yes, coaches need to coach their players not to put themselves in a position where it can be called. But if I salute in one game and it's not called, it shouldn't be called if I salute in the next game. :

Your expectations are just not realistic. Trying to develop a never ending list of specifically what will, and what will not, be tolerated is insane because of the endless creativity involved, and it's doubtful anyone would be able to remember the entire list. This "celebration nonsense", and the higher level of theatrics produced by it is a fairly new phenomenom that it's simply easier and more manageable to try and eliminate, rather than monitor and control.

As for "consistency", the goal is consistency with YOUR reaction within YOUR game. Looking for consistency, to the gnat's eyelash level, on a wider scale is a total illusion, and won't be achievable until we attain widespread and consistent perfection (which is a long way off).

If a player has done something stupid in one game and gotten away with it, that does not give him license to continue being stupid. Simply put, what the player, his coach, his parents and his fans consider acceptable, doesn't matter a lick. What counts is what the individual official viewing the behavior considers acceptable, and unless you are absolutely sure what each field official is thinking, the safest, surest bet is to give the ball to the nearest official after a score, and retreat to the team box before celebrating.

That was a practice, that worked pretty well for the first 100+ years of football.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Your expectations are just not realistic. Trying to develop a never ending list of specifically what will, and what will not, be tolerated is insane because of the endless creativity involved, and it's doubtful anyone would be able to remember the entire list. This "celebration nonsense", and the higher level of theatrics produced by it is a fairly new phenomenom that it's simply easier and more manageable to try and eliminate, rather than monitor and control.

As for "consistency", the goal is consistency with YOUR reaction within YOUR game. Looking for consistency, to the gnat's eyelash level, on a wider scale is a total illusion, and won't be achievable until we attain widespread and consistent perfection (which is a long way off).

If a player has done something stupid in one game and gotten away with it, that does not give him license to continue being stupid. Simply put, what the player, his coach, his parents and his fans consider acceptable, doesn't matter a lick. What counts is what the individual official viewing the behavior considers acceptable, and unless you are absolutely sure what each field official is thinking, the safest, surest bet is to give the ball to the nearest official after a score, and retreat to the team box before celebrating.

That was a practice, that worked pretty well for the first 100+ years of football.

Whether my expectations are realistic or not, there's no way you can justify a salute being flagged as USC in one game and in the very next game, on the same network, a crew from the same conference ignores the exact same act three times.

There's nothing new about about this "celebration nonsense" as you describe it. It's been in the game for years. Ever heard of Billy "White Shoes" Johnson? He was knee wobbling when I was a kid in the 70's. Players were spiking the ball and dunking it over the cross bar in the 80's. The "Icky Shuffle" is 20 years old. This isn't new and it's not going away.

This situation is broken and needs to be fixed. Players, coaches, fans, and even fellow officials should be subject to the whims of a particular official is feeling on a given day. If the guidelines presented don't work, and they obviously don't, then new guidelines need to be created. The NCAA has the technological ability to issue clarifications and guidelines to officials and coaches on a daily basis. As it is, the NCAA is making the officials the whipping boy as opposed to taken responsibility for the enforcement. The way the rules are currently written, the guidelines given, and the NCAA's "it's up to the official" mentality, it all places the officials in the line of fire from fans, coaches, players and the media.

It simply is not fair to officials.

[ottobabble]

Allegedly, the calling official ran up to the player and said to him "Wrong choice buddy" and then flagged him. Sounds a lot like a "I gotcha!". Not very professional in my opinion.

I still do not understand why the "diamond" gesture, which was displayed a lot longer by the Syracuse player is not a foul but the brief salute is.

[JasonTX]

According to this article, Randy Edsall, head coach of Connecticut and chairman of the rules committee agrees the call was the correct. Officials have been instructed to be very strict. It was mentioned that each play will be reviewed as well as each official. Perhaps there will be some discipline to the other 3 calls that were apparently missed.

NCAA officials coordinator backs calls in Pinstripe, Music City Bowls - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

[rulesmaven]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

According to this article, Randy Edsall, head coach of Connecticut and chairman of the rules committee agrees the call was the correct.

Well said by a man who still has a game to play this year and knows officials might be reading.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by rulesmaven

Well said by a man who still has a game to play this year and knows officials might be reading.

Very true. We'll see how supportive he is if his player gets flagged for the same action.

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Very true. We'll see how supportive he is if his player gets flagged for the same action.

Uhhhhh UCONN is playing Oklahoma right? May not have to worry about any celebration penalties by UCONN

[JRutledge]

I work enough football games at the high school level and I never see these antics. If you hand the official the ball and celebrate with a teammate, then you will not have to worry about what is called on you.

Also this has been addressed so many times which is why there is going to be a rule next year to flag celebrating before they get to the end zone. It is really simple. Do not do this stuff and you will not have to worry about it.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

According to this article, Randy Edsall, head coach of Connecticut and chairman of the rules committee agrees the call was the correct. Officials have been instructed to be very strict. It was mentioned that each play will be reviewed as well as each official. Perhaps there will be some discipline to the other 3 calls that were apparently missed.

NCAA officials coordinator backs calls in Pinstripe, Music City Bowls - Campus Rivalry: College Football & Basketball News, Recruiting, Game Picks, and More - USATODAY.com

We already know the throat slash in the UNC-UT game should have been flagged as 9-2-1a specifically addresses it.

I wonder what Parry and Edsall think of the three salutes and belt buckle that were not called in that game.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by sloth

First of all, the Big 10 bashing shows ignorance at it's finest. This is about individual officials making a judgement call in an area of the game that is very subjective. I'm not passing judgement on this call, but I will say this...in a situtaion like this I'm thinking about the pluses and minuses about throwing that flag. If the crew overlooks this fould, no one one notices. SportsCenter isn't running stories about how the officials blew a celebration foul and this thread wouldn't exist. The fact that we are talking about this, makes me think that it should have been passed on. We need to strive to be unseen and un-noticed in our craft...now sometimes thats imposible...but I think on a minor celebration foul late in a game...we have to really think about how we are going to handle this....espically with the enforcment changes for 2011.

I think this situation can lead to a lot of discussion in the off-season with the changes I mentioned to USC's being live ball fouls in 2011.

I wouldn't have made the call myself but I also don't think about how Sportscenter or other officials will perceive my call either before I make it. Every year we have one of these calls that gets all the attention and that has been pretty consistent each year.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by sloth

If the crew overlooks this fould, no one one notices. SportsCenter isn't running stories about how the officials blew a celebration foul and this thread wouldn't exist. The fact that we are talking about this, makes me think that it should have been passed on.

People complain about things which are not called as fouls all the time. Officials get calls 100% correct and ESPN runs stories saying they are wrong. Your logic doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by sloth

We need to strive to be unseen and un-noticed in our craft

I don't know why people say thing all the time; it is just some stupid statement that you are likely to hear from some sportscaster. How about striving to officiate the game properly? That may mean making a big call at the end of the game which focuses attention on yourself.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by sloth

My job (as I see it) is to (1) insure player safety (2) insure integrity of the game is upheld (FS/shifts/motion/more than 11 players, etc) and (3) insure that one team does not gain an unfair advantage over another team during a play situation (holding and point of attack/DPI/OPI, etc).

I notice that "being unseen" is not part of the job as you see it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by sloth

First of all, the Big 10 bashing shows ignorance at it's finest. This is about individual officials making a judgement call in an area of the game that is very subjective.

Ah no, it doesn't and it's about much more than that. It's obviously reflects on Big Ten officiating. It reflects on the inconsistency between one crew and another, which reflects on their training.

The Music City Bowl referee studdering and stumbling through most of his penalty announcements and explanation reflected poorly as well. Perhaps he's a fine offical but his certainly wasn't the best face for the Big Ten. I've never seen a referee appear to be that nervous.

[HLin NC]

The Music City Bowl referee studdering and stumbling through most of his penalty announcements and explanation reflected poorly as well. Perhaps he's a fine offical but his certainly wasn't the best face for the Big Ten. I've never seen a referee appear to be that nervous.
__________________

I noted the same. Like it or not, as these conferences push hard for the big TV dollars, that is a small thing they are going to have to keep in mind. I don't expect Ed Hochuli type mic work but that guy seemed as if he had just moved to R before the bowl from another position.

As one my old hoops coaches used to say, "He's got no rap."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Ah no, it doesn't and it's about much more than that. It's obviously reflects on Big Ten officiating. It reflects on the inconsistency between one crew and another, which reflects on their training.

The Music City Bowl referee studdering and stumbling through most of his penalty announcements and explanation reflected poorly as well. Perhaps he's a fine offical but his certainly wasn't the best face for the Big Ten. I've never seen a referee appear to be that nervous.

Will you stop it please!!!

For one there is a reason why certain officials get assigned certain games at all levels. You earn that right because you or your crew made the fewest mistakes in your evaluation system. Like it or not these are individuals on individual crews. What someone on another crew does is irrelevant in the bigger picture. I know many Big Ten officials and many Big Ten crew chiefs (as well as guys in the MAC and other Alliance conferences) and what they do is hard. And if they do not do what is asked of them they will not work and that includes Bowl games. What someone does in another game has nothing to do with what happens in your game. If the Big Ten does not like the call these guys will know. If there is inconsistency they will hear about it in their meetings and other correspondence. You can only control what you call in your game. You should know that being an official. I do not ever care what someone else does in their games because what I do will stand alone and be evaluated. And these rules have been talked about at the NCAA level extensively and I am sure in their conference. You can go on and on about how this reflects on the Big Ten but only uneducated people would think that. There are reasons that some guys make it in the Big Ten and others do not make it there. There are reasons that some guys go to Bowl games and others are sitting at home. Not to say that this was clearly the right call, but they will hear about it either way and based on some preliminary statements the higher ups liked the application. And at the NCAA, the coaches are the ones that write and create these rules. Officials are asked to enforce them and if they don't, they will find a few thousand people willing to take their spot and qualified to do their job, trust me on that one.


Peace