foul in overtime

[yankeesfan]

on the first possession in overtime, team A scores a touchdown. on the play, team B has a live ball personal foul facemask penalty. can team A have the option to take the penalty on the try or have it put on the succeeding spot?

[ppaltice]

For NFHS, only on the try. The wording in Rule 8-2-2 is subsequent kickoff, which precludes its use in OT.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

For NFHS, only on the try. The wording in Rule 8-2-2 is subsequent kickoff, which precludes its use in OT.

Actually, although you are spot-on regarding the language of the rule, this caseplay suggests that you can have the foul assessed at the succeeding spot:

8.2.2 SITUATION C: On the last timed down of the fourth period, the opponents of Team A foul on a play where Team A: (a) scores a touchdown that leaves Team A trailing by one point, (b) scores a field goal which ties the game, or (c) scores a touchdown that leaves team A trailing by one point and the opponents also foul on the try. RULING: In (a), Team A has the option to keep the score, with the penalty assessed on the try. The penalty cannot be assessed on the first play of overtime as there is no subsequent kickoff. In (b), Team A has the option to keep the score, with penalty assessment on the first play of overtime as the first play of overtime is the succeeding spot. In (c), Team A may only have the penalty for the opponent foul on the scoring play enforced on the try but cannot carry over the penalty to overtime; however, the foul by the opponent during the try could be enforced on the first play of overtime at Team A’s choice.

Check out the wording of the ruling in (b).

[yankeesfan]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Actually, although you are spot-on regarding the language of the rule, this caseplay suggests that you can have the foul assessed at the succeeding spot:

8.2.2 SITUATION C: On the last timed down of the fourth period, the opponents of Team A foul on a play where Team A: (a) scores a touchdown that leaves Team A trailing by one point, (b) scores a field goal which ties the game, or (c) scores a touchdown that leaves team A trailing by one point and the opponents also foul on the try. RULING: In (a), Team A has the option to keep the score, with the penalty assessed on the try. The penalty cannot be assessed on the first play of overtime as there is no subsequent kickoff. In (b), Team A has the option to keep the score, with penalty assessment on the first play of overtime as the first play of overtime is the succeeding spot. In (c), Team A may only have the penalty for the opponent foul on the scoring play enforced on the try but cannot carry over the penalty to overtime; however, the foul by the opponent during the try could be enforced on the first play of overtime at Team A’s choice.

Check out the wording of the ruling in (b).

in B there is no try.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan

there is no try. There is only do, or do not.

----Yoda

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan

in B there is no try.

True, but there is no subsequent kickoff either, which was the point of the post. The option to accept a foul during a scoring play and have it assessed at the succeeding spot in overtime is a valid option. If the foul is on b, A can accept the score and have the foul applied to either the try or the succeeding spot. This caseplay supports that, as they allow the penalt to be carried over to the succeeding spot, which is not a subsequent kickoff, but a snap.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

True, but there is no subsequent kickoff either, which was the point of the post. The option to accept a foul during a scoring play and have it assessed at the succeeding spot in overtime is a valid option. If the foul is on b, A can accept the score and have the foul applied to either the try or the succeeding spot. This caseplay supports that, as they allow the penalt to be carried over to the succeeding spot, which is not a subsequent kickoff, but a snap.

The try is the succeeding spot.

In the case play in B, the scoring play is a FG, so the subsequent kickoff is the succeeding spot.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The try is the succeeding spot.

In the case play in B, the scoring play is a FG, so the subsequent kickoff is the succeeding spot.

No, in the case play in B, because the score was a field goal to tie the game on the last play of the game, the succeeding spot is the spot where the ball will first be snapped in OT, determined by the coin toss.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

No, in the case play in B, because the score was a field goal to tie the game on the last play of the game, the succeeding spot is the spot where the ball will first be snapped in OT, determined by the coin toss.

Okay, that's true, my bad. The first snap in OT is the succeeding spot.

In the original post, the face mask penalty would have to be assessed on the try, because the try is the succeeding spot. The penalty cannot be assessed on B's 1st down play. B's 1sr down play is not the succeeding spot.

[ODJ]

In case play A: Team A has not tied the score with the TD, so the only guaranteed succeeding spot is the Try.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

For NFHS, only on the try. The wording in Rule 8-2-2 is subsequent kickoff, which precludes its use in OT.

Ok, I must have misunderstood ppaltice's post. I thought he was saying that the carryover provision for fouls on scoring plays never applied in OT. Clearly, there are some fouls that apply, specifically fouls during a try in OT. I understand that fouls during a "touchdown" scoring play cannot be carried over during overtime because there is no subsequent kickoff, but fouls during the try can be carried over during OT because of the "succeeding spot" language, Right?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

I understand that fouls during a "touchdown" scoring play cannot be carried over during overtime because there is no subsequent kickoff, but fouls during the try can be carried over during OT because of the "succeeding spot" language, Right?

You're making this harder than it is. For fouls on scoring plays where there will not be a kickoff, enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot.

The succeeding spot might be a try, if the score was a TD, or it might be an overtime spot, if the foul occurred during a try or FG.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You're making this harder than it is. For fouls on scoring plays where there will not be a kickoff, enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot.

The succeeding spot might be a try, if the score was a TD, or it might be an overtime spot, if the foul occurred during a try or FG.

Originally Posted by yankeesfan

on the first possession in overtime, team A scores a touchdown. on the play, team B has a live ball personal foul facemask penalty. can team A have the option to take the penalty on the try or have it put on the succeeding spot?

So what you are saying is that, since this is an overtime play and there is no subsequent kickoff, the penalty should be enforced from the succeeding spot - the try? But, if the penalty happened during the try, A could have the option to accept and replay, or apply the penalty to the succeeding spot, which would be B's first possession?

That's exactly what I'm saying. There is a provision in OT for accepting a score and marking the penalty off from the succeeding spot. The fact that there is no subsequent kickoff does not preclude that.

[ppaltice]

Scoring play is not the correct terminology, because there are a few ways you can score (TD, try, FG, and safety). Each have their on provisions for fouls that occur during the play.

The OP specified touchdown. On a foul by the defense that occurs during a TD, the penalty may be assessed on either the try or the subsequent kickoff. If the foul occurs during OT, there is no subsequent KO, so the penalty can only be assessed on the try (Rule 8-2-2).

If the penalty by the defense occurred during a successful try, A has the option of having the penalty assessed on the try and replaying or on the succeeding spot (which means it can carry over to the next series in OT) (Rule 8-3-5).

If the penalty by the defense occured during a successful FG, A has the option of having the penalty assessed from the previous spot and replaying the down or having the penalty assessed on the succeeding spot (next series in OT) (Rule 8-4-3).

No carryover provisions for penalties that occur during a safety (although quarter will not be extended for the kickoff).

Make sense? I think you are trying to bundle all scoring plays into one, and that is just not supported by rule.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

Make sense? I think you are trying to bundle all scoring plays into one, and that is just not supported by rule.

Yes, it makes sense, and no, I wasn't trying to bundle all scoring plays into one. Like I posted earlier, I misunderstood your statement " The wording in Rule 8-2-2 is subsequent kickoff, which precludes its use in OT" to mean that you thought there was no carryover provision at all in OT. My bad! Sorry for causing all the confusion, but I was pretty sure, as you have mentioned, that there were certain times in OT when a team could "take the score and have the penalty applied at the succeeding spot," namely, the try. You confirmed that and explained it very well, thank you.