Taking A Knee

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Actually, only "Where's the tee?" is covered in the Case Book. It's covered under Unfair Acts. That rule says the referee can assess whatever penalty he feels equitable.

Officials, evdiently you included, use the same principle to cover the "Wrong ball" play.

So the coach yells, "We're taking a knee," and doesn't.

Please tell me how that's different than yelling "Where's the tee?" or "This isn't our ball!"

It is totally different. Just read the comment at the end of the case play you are talking about.

"Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal."

Where's the tee and wrong ball are illegal because they are actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is a problem and the snap is not imminent. The coach yelling out "we're taking a knee" does not make the defense think the snap is not imminent because of some sort of a problem....in fact it is neither a problem nor making the defense think that the snap is not imminent.

If you are going to try to say that this is covered by unfair acts at least say that it is something not covered under the rules, don't cite a case play which doesn't support your argument.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cobra

If you are going to try to say that this is covered by unfair acts at least say that it is something not covered under the rules, don't cite a case play which doesn't support your argument.

So you think the rulebook and casebook is going to cover every possible situation that is possible? If that is what you are looking for, then no one should have to say it is not covered in the rulebook. A better response would be that you do not understand the way rules are made and interpreted. Because most situations will never be covered to your liking if you want something to be spelled out in all with all the possibilities. That is why we are asked to make judgments. We all do not have the same judgments.

Peace

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So you think the rulebook and casebook is going to cover every possible situation that is possible? If that is what you are looking for, then no one should have to say it is not covered in the rulebook. A better response would be that you do not understand the way rules are made and interpreted. Because most situations will never be covered to your liking if you want something to be spelled out in all with all the possibilities. That is why we are asked to make judgments. We all do not have the same judgments.

Peace

Ahh yes, I don't understand how rules are written. Maybe someday I will be intelligent enough to see that the offense trying to make the defense think that there is a problem and that the snap is not imminent is practically the same thing as an official asking the coach of the offense what type of play they will be running and then the offense not running that type of play. Looking back I must have been crazy to think that those were different.

You know that teams run fake kneel down plays, you admitted that you have seen it on the field. You must have seen a muffed snap before. Anything can happen.

It is none of your business to find out what type of play the offense is planning on running. Don't ask anyone. You can probably realize when it may be a kneel down situation and you can probably realize when A is in a kneel down formation. If you need to say something you can tell the players to "be smart" or "protect yourselves". It is not your job to announce anything to the defense before the snap.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Ahh yes, I don't understand how rules are written. Maybe someday I will be intelligent enough to see that the offense trying to make the defense think that there is a problem and that the snap is not imminent is practically the same thing as an official asking the coach of the offense what type of play they will be running and then the offense not running that type of play. Looking back I must have been crazy to think that those were different.

I do not know whether you are intelligent, I just know that because you do not agree with the ruling does not mean it does not fit the spirit and intent of the rule or interpretation covered.

Originally Posted by Cobra

You know that teams run fake kneel down plays, you admitted that you have seen it on the field. You must have seen a muffed snap before. Anything can happen.

Yes and we shut it down. And it is also spelled out at other levels as well to be illegal. So maybe this is not one of these acceptable fake plays.

Originally Posted by Cobra

It is none of your business to find out what type of play the offense is planning on running. Don't ask anyone. You can probably realize when it may be a kneel down situation and you can probably realize when A is in a kneel down formation. If you need to say something you can tell the players to "be smart" or "protect yourselves". It is not your job to announce anything to the defense before the snap.

It is? I guess we never ask coaches "Are there any unusual plays that we need to be aware of?" You are right; we have no right to know what they run. So much so that we ask coaches before every game to make us aware of plays they might run so we can be prepared for them and rule on them properly. In some cases tell the coach that play is illegal which they are often unaware. So I guess someone must think we have the right to ask them what plays they are running. Better yet, coaches in my area often go out of their way to tell us they are taking a knee. So I guess they gave us that right?

Peace

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is? I guess we never ask coaches "Are there any unusual plays that we need to be aware of?" You are right; we have no right to know what they run. So much so that we ask coaches before every game to make us aware of plays they might run so we can be prepared for them and rule on them properly.

I guess you think that is the same as asking "what play are you running next?" It could help you officiate in some way so it isn't that stupid....but then you announce what play they told you to the defense and then call a foul if they do not run that play.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Better yet, coaches in my area often go out of their way to tell us they are taking a knee. So I guess they gave us that right?

What play they are running means nothing to you, therefore it is not any of your business. You have no reason to ask.

[bigjohn]

That is why I said this

Rule 1-1-6 Covers this nicely I believe!

ART. 6 . . . The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good
sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee’s decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

The fake kneel down is not covered specifically in the rule book but it stinks of Wrong ball and Where's the Tee? They are both types of deception that is disallowed as is hidden ball if you must have a live ball one to hang your hat on!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I guess you think that is the same as asking "what play are you running next?" It could help you officiate in some way so it isn't that stupid....but then you announce what play they told you to the defense and then call a foul if they do not run that play.



What play they are running means nothing to you, therefore it is not any of your business. You have no reason to ask.

Why is it hard to understand if you do not want to do something, then do not do it. I am not telling you what to do or really care at the end of the day. I am on a very experienced crew where I am the youngest person in years and I have 15 years in. We do this with great success and we are not alone where I live. If you choose to not ask or care and want the end of the game to end in a PF fest as the videos that were posted show, so be it. We are doing this and it is our duty to find out if a team has given up or is not trying to hurt each other and then give that information. If you do not want to do that, do not do that. Life will go on trust me.

Peace

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I guess you think that is the same as asking "what play are you running next?" It could help you officiate in some way so it isn't that stupid....but then you announce what play they told you to the defense and then call a foul if they do not run that play.



What play they are running means nothing to you, therefore it is not any of your business. You have no reason to ask.

You are totally off base here...taking a knee at the end of the game is a special situation...it is not like every other play during the game no matter what you think.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

You are totally off base here...taking a knee at the end of the game is a special situation...it is not like every other play during the game no matter what you think.

Exactly !!!

Why let something stupid happen at the end of the game when you have been working hard all game long to prevent it?

Hence, at 56-6 we tell our kids "they're taking a knee".

At 17-14, we are signaling to our crew members to "stay alert, see the ball, the game's not over."

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

You are totally off base here...taking a knee at the end of the game is a special situation...it is not like every other play during the game no matter what you think.

What if it is at the end of the first half instead of at the end of the game?

It isn't a special situation. The offense is just running the play that they feel will give them the best chance to win the game. The defense knows the time is about to run out so they have to get the ball back.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My umpire does tell the defense not to fire out

This is by far the dumbest thing said in this entire discussion. B is down by 5 points at the end of the game and their only chance of getting the ball back is recovering a muffed snap but the umpire tells the defense to just stand there.

Ok, you want to ask the team if they are taking a knee....pretty stupid, you should be able to figure it out on your own. Same for telling the defense, they aren't stupid. But to tell the defense not to fire out basically means the game is over. You might as well just hold the ball up and walk off the field and stop wasting everyone's time.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Cobra

It is totally different. Just read the comment at the end of the case play you are talking about.

"Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal."

Where's the tee and wrong ball are illegal because they are actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is a problem and the snap is not imminent. The coach yelling out "we're taking a knee" does not make the defense think the snap is not imminent because of some sort of a problem....in fact it is neither a problem nor making the defense think that the snap is not imminent.

If you are going to try to say that this is covered by unfair acts at least say that it is something not covered under the rules, don't cite a case play which doesn't support your argument.

No case play is all inclusive. Even you should know that. If the coach yells that he's going to take a knee to decieve the defense, then that meets the definition of an unfair act.

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Understand the concept of preventive officiating, but where do you draw the line to keep from coaching?

I don't see how "Be smart guys, if he takes a knee, don't hit him," could be considered coaching. But if that's the issue, then "Be smart guys. Don't do anything stupid," addresses both teams.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No case play is all inclusive. Even you should know that. If the coach yells that he's going to take a knee to decieve the defense, then that meets the definition of an unfair act.

It is exclusively, "In the opinion of the Referee" (NF: 9-9-5) that determines what is improper.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ajmc

It is exclusively, "In the opinion of the Referee" (NF: 9-9-5) that determines what is improper.

Exactly. If in the referee's opinion the coach deliberately tried to deceive the defense, that's all that needed.