The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 10:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 50
Roughing the QB or illegal helmet contact

Last week, I called B78 for roughing the passer when he used his helmet to spear the QB. However, the timing of the hit was not late. I decided to go with the more accepted roughing call but maybe I should have just called the illegal helmet contact. I realize the only difference is the automatic first down, which in this case did not matter because it was 2nd and 10.

However, I wanted to get some feedback on whether Referees default to roughing on questionable hits on the QB. Also, in terms of mechanics could I have signaled both the Roughing call followed by illegal helmet contact signal to add clarification?

Any thoughts.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 11:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by john_faz View Post
Last week, I called B78 for roughing the passer when he used his helmet to spear the QB. However, the timing of the hit was not late. I decided to go with the more accepted roughing call but maybe I should have just called the illegal helmet contact. I realize the only difference is the automatic first down, which in this case did not matter because it was 2nd and 10.
However, I wanted to get some feedback on whether Referees default to roughing on questionable hits on the QB. Also, in terms of mechanics could I have signaled both the Roughing call followed by illegal helmet contact signal to add clarification?

Any thoughts.
Sounds like you had a Roughing the Passer that involved Illegal Helmet Contact ... The Roughing the Passer is a Special Enforcement Penalty that is added to the end of the last run provided there is no change of possession. In the OP, if the pass was completed there would be a big difference in the enforcement between Roughing the Passer and Illegal Helmet Contact (Personal Foul).
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 11:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Watertown, SD
Posts: 56
Send a message via Skype™ to jemiller
Boy I think that your instincts to flag it as a roughing the passer call is correct. At all levels we have to protect the quarterback, and punishing the QB here is unacceptable.

I am an old defensive lineman and so say this with a heavy heart given the protection that the NFL has given to the QB's. At times I feel that I still am too easy on the defense when they put a hit on the QB as he just gets the ball off. Still I try to judge whether or not the defender could have avoided contact with the passer, before putting a major hit on him.

Much of this job is judgement of course. I think that you have to err on the side of safety for the player, and the QB is the main cog in all teams members.

My two cents...JM
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 12:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by john_faz View Post
Last week, I called B78 for roughing the passer when he used his helmet to spear the QB. However, the timing of the hit was not late. I decided to go with the more accepted roughing call but maybe I should have just called the illegal helmet contact. I realize the only difference is the automatic first down, which in this case did not matter because it was 2nd and 10.
I appreciate your effort to protect the QB, but I think you missed this one right down the line.

1. Although it might be unnecessary roughness against a passer, it is not roughing the passer, which is clearly defined in terms of late hit ("after it is clear the ball has been thrown") in 9-4-1:
"Roughing the passer. Defensive players must make a definite effort
to avoid charging into a passer, who has thrown the ball from in or behind the
neutral zone, after it is clear the ball has been thrown."

2. I'm not sure what you mean by roughing being the "more accepted" call: I guess roughing is more common than IHC. That's not a factor in determining what foul to call.

3. As someone has already pointed out, the enforcements of these penalties are quite different and amount to more than just an automatic first down.

The good news is that you'll probably own the IHC and roughing rules!
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 05:14pm
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
What MByron said - just because a foul happens to have the QB as a victim does not make it roughing the passer. RTP is a very specific penalty, with, as mentioned, a VERY different enforcement at times. This should be penalized exactly the same as a spearing on a RB or WR.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 06:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,153
i. Initiate illegal helmet contact. (butt block, face tackle or spear)
NOTE: Illegal helmet contact may be considered a flagrant act. Acts to be considered
flagrant include, but are not limited to:
1. Illegal helmet contact against an opponent lying on the ground,
2. Illegal helmet contact against an opponent being held up by other players,
and/or
3. Illegal helmet-to-helmet contact against a defenseless opponent.


The QB is often defenseless when he is throwing the ball.
__________________
When my time on earth is gone, and my activities here are passed, I want they bury me upside down, and my critics can kiss my azz!
Bobby Knight
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2010, 06:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 244
I would say that if this had happened in a game for me as White Hat (we work NCAA rules here in Europe) then I would have called it RTP. I would have used the illegal helmet signal after the RTP signal to show that it was due to the helmet contact rather than the lateness.

My understanding is that NCAA want us to call this RTP so that we can add the yards onto a completed pass and thus the penalty to be more punitive

Rarely work Fed Rules (only when on vacation in the USA) but I always understood the NFHS Rules to be even more about protecting players than the College Rules, I'm somewhat surprised that the feeling on this thread is that the Federation would want this called as a P/F and not RTP.
__________________
Sorry Death, you lose.... It was Professor Plum!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 06, 2010, 06:35am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes View Post
I would say that if this had happened in a game for me as White Hat (we work NCAA rules here in Europe) then I would have called it RTP. I would have used the illegal helmet signal after the RTP signal to show that it was due to the helmet contact rather than the lateness.

My understanding is that NCAA want us to call this RTP so that we can add the yards onto a completed pass and thus the penalty to be more punitive

Rarely work Fed Rules (only when on vacation in the USA) but I always understood the NFHS Rules to be even more about protecting players than the College Rules, I'm somewhat surprised that the feeling on this thread is that the Federation would want this called as a P/F and not RTP.
WTF: If you're suggesting that NCAA wants to expand the time-frame for RTP a little, I can buy that.

But what about this play: QB rolls out, throws a screen pass that starts to go 70 yards for a TD. After the runner has gone 35 yards, the QB gets nailed 10 yards downfield with IHC. Clearly a live-ball foul, but are you calling it RTP 15 seconds after the pass has ended?

Even NCAA's suggestion to expand the time-frame of RTP has its limits.
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 06, 2010, 08:13am
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn View Post
i. Initiate illegal helmet contact. (butt block, face tackle or spear)
NOTE: Illegal helmet contact may be considered a flagrant act. Acts to be considered
flagrant include, but are not limited to:
1. Illegal helmet contact against an opponent lying on the ground,
2. Illegal helmet contact against an opponent being held up by other players,
and/or
3. Illegal helmet-to-helmet contact against a defenseless opponent.


The QB is often defenseless when he is throwing the ball.
If you would not have flagged this tackle had there not been helmet to helmet, then you can't call this RFP or flagrant IHC.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 06, 2010, 10:00am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,799
I would call roughing the passer for IHC all day and that is how it has been called and interpreted for years. Because the hit is unnecessary and a player that should not be hit at that time.

I have no problem with someone calling it that way and we call it that way with the crews I have been on.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 06, 2010, 10:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 622
This isn't roughing since it's not a hit "after it's clear the ball has been thrown". I don't think anyone but officials would know the difference between IHC and RTP in a situation like this. If you're comfortable misapplying the rules and awarding a first down when you shouldn't then go ahead and call it RTP. 95% of the time 15 yds will give A a first down anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 06, 2010, 11:11am
Moderator M-800
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdf5 View Post
This isn't roughing since it's not a hit "after it's clear the ball has been thrown". I don't think anyone but officials would know the difference between IHC and RTP in a situation like this. If you're comfortable misapplying the rules and awarding a first down when you shouldn't then go ahead and call it RTP. 95% of the time 15 yds will give A a first down anyway.
Did you expect different?
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 06, 2010, 11:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
WTF: If you're suggesting that NCAA wants to expand the time-frame for RTP a little, I can buy that.

But what about this play: QB rolls out, throws a screen pass that starts to go 70 yards for a TD. After the runner has gone 35 yards, the QB gets nailed 10 yards downfield with IHC. Clearly a live-ball foul, but are you calling it RTP 15 seconds after the pass has ended?
Of course in that case the ordinary personal foul appl'n would be to the end of the run.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 06, 2010, 11:39am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdf5 View Post
This isn't roughing since it's not a hit "after it's clear the ball has been thrown". I don't think anyone but officials would know the difference between IHC and RTP in a situation like this. If you're comfortable misapplying the rules and awarding a first down when you shouldn't then go ahead and call it RTP. 95% of the time 15 yds will give A a first down anyway.
How this is applied is like any other rule. This is a local issue. And jurisdiction can instruct their officials how to enforce rules and if this falls into a category. We have asked if this was OK and as far as I can tell this is OK with those that interpret the rules. Just like we can debate all day what is allowed in the FBZ on a shotgun formation, your area is who you have to answer to. I think calling this with IHC that is not late is appropriate where I live and work. Might not be the case where you are. And I have not read any information that suggests that this is not the case from the rules makers or make it clear that this does not apply.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 06, 2010, 11:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 156
I also call Illegal Helmet Contact against the passer as Roughing the Passer. But if you want to read what the rule makers say, they side with KDF5.

2003 Interpretations, Situation 3:

A12 completes a pass, and as he releases the ball, he is tackled by B52, who makes helmet-to-helmet contact. It was not obvious the ball was thrown when B52 made contact. RULING: Illegal personal contact.

It usually doesn't matter one way or the other, except if the pass is complete or the LTG was >15 yards away, it becomes a larger penalty. If you have any doubt, I would definitely say RTP. If the defender lowers his head, I would call RTP as the defender is committing to a personal foul without regards to if the pass will be thrown (i.e. I can no longer judge if the defender had the opportunity to judge if the pass is thrown if he lowers his head).

I certainly would not criticize KDF5 as he is calling the foul by the book.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NCAA: Illegal forward pass and roughing the passer? bearclause Football 6 Wed Nov 18, 2009 07:46am
Illegal Forward Pass and Roughing the Passer WhistlesAndStripes Football 11 Thu Aug 28, 2008 08:27am
Helmet contact / LSU vs. Miss. State l3will Football 13 Sun Sep 02, 2007 02:44am
Illegal Helmet Contact Stripe Football 8 Fri Nov 10, 2006 01:50pm
Illegal Helmet Contact mikesears Football 16 Tue Jan 06, 2004 06:35pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:49am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1