Illegal shift?

[johnny1784]

The quarterback (A1) says ready, set... then backs A2 & A3 move simultaneously to reset in different positions in backfield for 1 second... then ball is snapped. Would there be a penalty for Illegal Shift? Can players in backfield move to reset after other players have been in a set position?

[GoodwillRef]

[QUOTE=johnny1784;694025]The quarterback (A1) says ready, set... then backs A2 & A3 move simultaneously to reset in different positions in backfield for 1 second... then ball is snapped. Would there be a penalty for Illegal Shift? Can players in backfield move to reset after other players have been in a set position?[/

Yes they can...this is legal.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by johnny1784

The quarterback (A1) says ready, set... then backs A2 & A3 move simultaneously to reset in different positions in backfield for 1 second... then ball is snapped. Would there be a penalty for Illegal Shift? Can players in backfield move to reset after other players have been in a set position?

You're thinking about this backwards. Don't worry about who's allowed to shift: everyone is allowed to shift, all 11 A players.

Instead, think from the snap: at the snap, you have 2 legal possibilities.
1. All 11 A players are set and have been set for at least 1 second at the snap.
2. All 11 A players have been set for at least 1 second, then 1 A player goes in motion legally, and then the ball is snapped.

As long as A does one of those 2, they can shift and reshift to their hearts' content until they've used up the play clock.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You're thinking about this backwards. Don't worry about who's allowed to shift: everyone is allowed to shift, all 11 A players.

Instead, think from the snap: at the snap, you have 2 legal possibilities.
1. All 11 A players are set and have been set for at least 1 second at the snap.
2. All 11 A players have been set for at least 1 second, then 1 A player goes in motion legally, and then the ball is snapped.

As long as A does one of those 2, they can shift and reshift to their hearts' content until they've used up the play clock.

What if the game clock is running and shows less than the play clock?

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

What if the game clock is running and shows less than the play clock?

If they are in the lead don't let them run a play...!

[johnny1784]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You're thinking about this backwards. Don't worry about who's allowed to shift: everyone is allowed to shift, all 11 A players.

Instead, think from the snap: at the snap, you have 2 legal possibilities.
1. All 11 A players are set and have been set for at least 1 second at the snap.
2. All 11 A players have been set for at least 1 second, then 1 A player goes in motion legally, and then the ball is snapped.

As long as A does one of those 2, they can shift and reshift to their hearts' content until they've used up the play clock.

I am very confused with my case book and rules book. Actually the qb barked "set, ready" and then the backs changed and ball was snapped.

Ok, please give me some game situations close to mine that would result in a penalty - illegal shift. Thanks.

[bkdow]

You could call it a false start. It's judgement here. Just because a player or players move from one legal position to another does not necessarily deem that it's legal. Consider the TE who moves to early and attempts to cover it by going in motion...this is a false start.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by johnny1784

Reading #2, all 11 A players have been set for at least 1 second, then "A2 & A3 players move to new locations in backfield, then the ball is snapped"... still legal?

I'm not sure what you're asking. If you have 2 in motion at the snap, that's not legal, no. If they shift and then set for 1 second before the snap, then it is legal.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by johnny1784

I am very confused with my case book and rules book. Actually the qb barked "set, ready" and then the backs changed and ball was snapped.

Ok, please give me some game situations close to mine that would result in a penalty - illegal shift. Thanks.

Failure to conclude the shift at least a second before the snap. They call it "illegal shift" as shorthand for that failure. It's not the shifting action itself that's illegal; if there were something illegal about it, it would have to be a false start or encroachment or illegal motion.

At one time the NFL (but no other governing body I'm aware of) had an actual limitation on shifting, and for them calling that violation an illegal shift was quite apt. And for those codes that did not make all encroachment kill the play immediately, shifting (i.e. moving deliberately) thru the neutral zone is illegal by either team, but it's flagged as encroachment IIRC and does kill the play.

[wisref2]

You might be over-thinking this. Don't think about how many people are shifting - it is a shift going from the huddle to the LOS, so that's 11 people all shifting at the same time and is perfectly legal. It is a shift when linemen go from 2 point stance to 3 point stance - so that's 5 or 6 people shifting at the same time.

Are all 11 players set for one second before the snap? If so, legal.

If there is a one motion man at the time of the snap - were all 11 players set for one second before that player went into motion? If so, legal.

Backs A1 and A2 are set up wide to the right. They go into motion together and reset behind the QB. They are set for 1 second, then the ball is snapped. Legal.

Backs A1 and A2 are set up wide to the right. They go into motion together and reset behind the QB. They are set for 1 second, then A1 goes into motion and the ball is snapped. Legal.

Backs A1 and A2 are set up wide to the right. They go into motion together and A1 stops behind the QB but A2 remains in motion. The ball is snapped. That is a foul. Let's not argue whether it's illegal motion or illegal shift - it is one or the other!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bkdow

You could call it a false start. It's judgement here. Just because a player or players move from one legal position to another does not necessarily deem that it's legal. Consider the TE who moves to early and attempts to cover it by going in motion...this is a false start.

Not if he's uncovered and doesn't draw the defense into the NZ.

[johnny1784]

Originally Posted by wisref2

You might be over-thinking this. Don't think about how many people are shifting - it is a shift going from the huddle to the LOS, so that's 11 people all shifting at the same time and is perfectly legal. It is a shift when linemen go from 2 point stance to 3 point stance - so that's 5 or 6 people shifting at the same time.

Are all 11 players set for one second before the snap? If so, legal.

If there is a one motion man at the time of the snap - were all 11 players set for one second before that player went into motion? If so, legal.

Backs A1 and A2 are set up wide to the right. They go into motion together and reset behind the QB. They are set for 1 second, then the ball is snapped. Legal.

Backs A1 and A2 are set up wide to the right. They go into motion together and reset behind the QB. They are set for 1 second, then A1 goes into motion and the ball is snapped. Legal.

Backs A1 and A2 are set up wide to the right. They go into motion together and A1 stops behind the QB but A2 remains in motion. The ball is snapped. That is a foul. Let's not argue whether it's illegal motion or illegal shift - it is one or the other!

Ok, very good points. Thanks.