Illegal shift, or not?

[Bullycon]

A ball, 1st and 10 from A25 yard line. Guard, Tackle and Split End lined up to the left of the Center. On the line to the right of the Center are the RG, RT, A10 and A15. A10 is lined up inside of A15.

A10 realizes that he does not want to be on the line, and takes a step back. Before he has been set for a second, A snaps the ball.

Is this an illegal shift? Or is it a legal play?

EDIT: NFHS rules, if that makes a difference.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Bullycon

A ball, 1st and 10 from A25 yard line. Guard, Tackle and Split End lined up to the left of the Center. On the line to the right of the Center are the RG, RT, A10 and A15. A10 is lined up inside of A15.

A10 realizes that he does not want to be on the line, and takes a step back. Before he has been set for a second, A snaps the ball.

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal. Setting for 1 second are for linemen. Since he stepped off the line, he's ok.

Edit: if he broke a 3- or 4-point stance, kill the play for IP.

[dumbref]

NF - Assuming A10 is not set in a a three point stance, he may shift to a position in the back field. But he still must be set for one second before the snap - illegal shift.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by dumbref

NF - Assuming A10 is not set in a a three point stance, he may shift to a position in the back field. But he still must be set for one second before the snap - illegal shift.

But does that comport with Fed's definition of "shift"? Only 1 player moved, and backward.

Fed doesn't have a time requirement to establish position in the backfield, either IIRC, just a momentary "set", so it's not illegal formation either. Of course in the <1 sec. he had to become still, you may not have seen him as "set".

Robert

[MJT]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But does that comport with Fed's definition of "shift"? Only 1 player moved, and backward.

Fed doesn't have a time requirement to establish position in the backfield, either IIRC, just a momentary "set", so it's not illegal formation either. Of course in the <1 sec. he had to become still, you may not have seen him as "set".

Robert

2-39 Shift: A shift is the action of one or more off players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions , move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.

Robert, how are you thinking it is not an illegal shift?

[verticalStripes]

Fed Rules: A10 could be in motion at the snap, but he must be at least five yards deep if he did not estabilish himself as a back. Sounds like you have an illegal shift.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by verticalStripes

Fed Rules: A10 could be in motion at the snap, but he must be at least five yards deep if he did not estabilish himself as a back. Sounds like you have an illegal shift.

If he is set, but not yet set for one second, he is not in motion, and the shift is not completed, thus an illegal shift.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by verticalStripes

Fed Rules: A10 could be in motion at the snap, but he must be at least five yards deep if he did not estabilish himself as a back. Sounds like you have an illegal shift.

Being 5 yds deep if he didn't establish himself is a quote of the illegal motion rule, not illegal shift.

[dumbref]

I concede that this could also be considered illegal motion under 7-2-7. I think the way I would justify the difference is if A10 continues his motion and is not at least 5yards behind the LOS – illegal motion. If he just steps back just as the ball is snapped but does not get set – illegal shift.

We’re probably swatting at knats to argue which – It’s more important we agree this is a foul at the snap. The results are prety much the same.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MJT

2-39 Shift: A shift is the action of one or more off players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions , move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.

Robert, how are you thinking it is not an illegal shift?

Because I was using an outdated Fed definition. For a while a 1-player shift pertained only to a move forward.

[Texas Aggie]

Under NCAA, this would be a penalty, but illegal motion. We *might* call this a false start and shut it down.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Illegal motion. A player who takes a position as a lineman and then goes in motion must be at least 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage at the snap.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: For Fed, this could not be illegal motion since the OP implies that A10 had stopped moving but that the snap ensued less than the required one second later. Since he stopped, it was a shift. Since he was not motionless for 1 second prior to the snap, that shift was illegal.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: For Fed, this could not be illegal motion since the OP implies that A10 had stopped moving but that the snap ensued less than the required one second later. Since he stopped, it was a shift. Since he was not motionless for 1 second prior to the snap, that shift was illegal.

I'm tired, but don't we need at least two people for an illegal shift?

Illegal Motion - 7-2-7-Penalty, verbatim.

[cdoug]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

I'm tired, but don't we need at least two people for an illegal shift?

Illegal Motion - 7-2-7-Penalty, verbatim.

Definition of a shift: "...the action of one or more players who. after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap."

7.2.6: "After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap."

I'm calling illegal shift.