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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 03:10pm
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The craziness of youth ball - FG Attempt, no - TD!

NCAA rules. 4th down and goal from the 5, 6th graders lined up for a FG (rushes and fakes are allowed here for 6th grade.) Snapper snaps the ball right into his left leg, ball rolls to the RB (not the holder). Snapper turns around, RB hands him the ball, he goes back to his position and puts the ball on the ground ready to snap it again. No one rushing. My partner (yes, just 1 partner) heads toward his sideline, I'm heading toward mine. Kicker yells "HOLD ON - Don't Snap it!!!" Center stands up, ball is on the ground by itself, kicker runs up and whispers to the center, who gets back on the ground with the ball. Kicker yells "Ready!!!" and the center (nearly untouched) sprints 5 yards forward for the TD.

Let me tell you, I've had some fun conversations with coaches (and one-sided "conversations" from parents) - but this one took the cake. So not happy this happened to my sideline! The team that scored this ended up winning by 1.

Have to say ... kicker must be a future referee.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 03:19pm
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And you had no fouls? How about forward handing?
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 03:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parepat View Post
And you had no fouls? How about forward handing?
the kid getting the handoff was at least 2 yards off the line of scrimmage, and facing opposite the goal line.
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Last edited by MD Longhorn; Mon Sep 13, 2010 at 04:13pm.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 03:48pm
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How about an illegal snap:

7-3-4 a snap.... the ball immediately leaves the hand of hands of the snapper and touches a backfield player or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

When the ball hit the snapper's leg could you have had an illegal snap?
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 04:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parepat View Post
How about an illegal snap:

7-3-4 a snap.... the ball immediately leaves the hand of hands of the snapper and touches a backfield player or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

When the ball hit the snapper's leg could you have had an illegal snap?
Um ... what? 7-3-4 has to do with eligibility of a receiver that goes out of bounds.

And I see nothing in 7-1 that would have made this snap illegal.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 04:22pm
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Oops. 7-2-4

In your play the ball struck a lineman (the snapper in the leg) before it hit the ground or a back.
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 04:28pm
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Originally Posted by parepat View Post
Oops. 7-2-4

In your play the ball struck a lineman (the snapper in the leg) before it hit the ground or a back.
OK, and 7-2-4 is about backward passes out of bounds. Your numbers are wrong in whatever you're looking at. (Wrong year maybe?). Anyway, perhaps you could quote the rule you're using instead of just the number?
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Old Mon Sep 13, 2010, 04:32pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
OK, and 7-2-4 is about backward passes out of bounds. Your numbers are wrong in whatever you're looking at. (Wrong year maybe?). Anyway, perhaps you could quote the rule you're using instead of just the number?
parepat is quoting an NF rule. Your OP stated the game was being played using NCAA rules. This is apparently the discrepancy in rule citations.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 01:05pm
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Ok. Here are two reasons why the play should have been disallowed. The first is stronger, in my opinion.

(1) 7-2-5. When the center put the ball down to talk to the kicker, it was at rest with no player attempting to gain possession - dead ball.
(2) 7-1-7. When the back handed the ball forward to the snapper, he has advanced (see 2-8-1) a planned loose ball and he is obviously in the vicinity of the snapper.
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Old Tue Sep 14, 2010, 02:09pm
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Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire View Post
Ok. Here are two reasons why the play should have been disallowed. The first is stronger, in my opinion.

(1) 7-2-5. When the center put the ball down to talk to the kicker, it was at rest with no player attempting to gain possession - dead ball.
(2) 7-1-7. When the back handed the ball forward to the snapper, he has advanced (see 2-8-1) a planned loose ball and he is obviously in the vicinity of the snapper.
I can see invoking the first one, although I'm not sure the intent of the rules was for that rule to apply to this sitch... that rule is so we have a reason to kill the play on those punts where the entire kicking team is standing around the ball - but I get where you're coming from there. Not sure how many of us would have called that though, on the field, confronted with this situation live.

2 is just wrong. You can't call this a planned loose ball - it was VERY clear that there was nothing planned about this.
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 08:53am
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
2 is just wrong. You can't call this a planned loose ball - it was VERY clear that there was nothing planned about this.
*blink* Seriously? From your description, I took away the impression that this was a set play. If not, then extra marks for cleverness to the kicker, who I guess realized what had happened and told the snapper what to do about. But... really unplanned? It seems improbable that they could manage to avoid any rule infractions on this play by accident.
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 09:21am
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Comment about kicker being a future referee: spot on!

The key to your OP is 6TH GRADERS. Everyone gave up on the play. The ball came to rest. Blow it dead because the ball came to rest. B's ball. A complains. So what? On what grounds does A's coach have a leg to stand on? Snap happened. Snap was botched. Ball came to rest. If A's coach is going to lose sleep over something like this then I want to be his cardiologist. I'll be rich!
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 09:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire View Post
*blink* Seriously? From your description, I took away the impression that this was a set play. If not, then extra marks for cleverness to the kicker, who I guess realized what had happened and told the snapper what to do about. But... really unplanned? It seems improbable that they could manage to avoid any rule infractions on this play by accident.
If this was planned, the entire team needs to sign up for drama when they get older. There is NO CHANCE this was a set play. If it was, I highly doubt kicker would have had to say anything, center would have simply acted like he was snapping and then on his own timing, ran for the score. Snapper was ready to snap the ball - it was kicker who realized what was going on.
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Old Wed Sep 15, 2010, 10:00am
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Originally Posted by JRod37 View Post
Comment about kicker being a future referee: spot on!

The key to your OP is 6TH GRADERS. Everyone gave up on the play. The ball came to rest. Blow it dead because the ball came to rest. B's ball. A complains. So what? On what grounds does A's coach have a leg to stand on? Snap happened. Snap was botched. Ball came to rest. If A's coach is going to lose sleep over something like this then I want to be his cardiologist. I'll be rich!
I really do see your point and could justify this and sell this if I had to. But honestly, in replaying the play in my mind, A had not "given up" on the play. The ball was only set on the ground when kicker yelled at the center... at least that one player had not given up on the play as he issued instructions to the center.

One thing I've definitely learned over the years though - you find yourself reaching deeper into the book at peewee than at varsity - peewee is where all the TWP's happen.
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Old Fri Sep 17, 2010, 12:59pm
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I don't know if I'm more perplexed that the play went as it did, or the fact that there's youth football using NCAA Rules....never heard of that.

Is this common place anywhere else?
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