PSK Revisited

[NorCalRef12]

When does the second PSK window open if there is more than one scrimmage kick during a down?

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Oh, before I forget.

Did somebody mention 'bacon'?

I was doing just fine until THIS post. Now i've drooled on my keyboard.

[Sonofanump]

Originally Posted by NorCalRef12

When does the second PSK window open if there is more than one scrimmage kick during a down?

How does this second legal scrimmage kick occurr?

[Rich]

Can I borrow a comma from this thread?

Personally I liked the previous definition of the PSK window before they tried making it easier on us. But it's still clear -- the window opens with the snap and closes at the end of the kick as long as the requirements of PSK are met.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

How does this second legal scrimmage kick occurr?

There is no limit to the number of scrimmage kicks that may be made prior to a change of possession during the down.

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

How does this second legal scrimmage kick occurr?

Ex 1. 4/10 from the K-20. K1 kicks the ball and it lands at the K-25 and bounces backwards to the K-18 where K1 quickly picks it up and kicks it again.

Ex 2. 4/10 from the K-20. K1 muffs the snap and throws a forward pass to K2 at the K-25 and R1 interferes with K2. K2 catches the pass, tries to circle back. K2 fumbles the ball at the K-22 and K3 picks the ball up at the K-18 and then punts the ball from there.

When did the PSK window open and close for each play?

I think I read this play somewhere, but I don't recall where.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Can I borrow a comma from this thread?

Personally I liked the previous definition of the PSK window before they tried making it easier on us. But it's still clear -- the window opens with the snap and closes at the end of the kick as long as the requirements of PSK are met.

You sure? Fed probably meant to copy NCAA, which classifies downs according to a priority ranking of certain things happening during the down, so they probably mean "scrimmage kick play" as a down during which a scrimmage kick occurred, but it is odd that they used the word "play", which invites other interpretations.

I finally, preparing to move stuff back into the room with the new carpet, dug out my collection of research on football rules, and Fed used to be such a model of clarity, but they've gone way downhill. I doubt sloppiness such as this would've occurred 30 yrs. ago in Fed; in NFL or CFL, sure, and probably about as easily in what was then CAFA; in NCAA, very unlikely, but still more likely than Fed at that time.

We can gather that by using the word "play" they meant something other than just the interval of the scrimmage kick itself, but by not using the word "down" they suggest something other than that too. Maybe they were meaning to cover certain intervals in the unlikely event of those multiple kicks that some posters have brought up, and just forgot to add the definition.

[procivil]

Otherwise a roughing the kicker penalty would classify as a PSK.

Note the commentary from NFHS casebook in 2003 when the rule was established:


"This change does not create an exception to the penalty code, but rather, a new enforcement spot. In addition, the rule change does not change the concept that the receiving team has to get the ball with "clean hands," but rather, that they have to have clean hands until the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone."

Also, consider the following from an Officiating.com article by Ed Hickland

"Making it simple

Post-scrimmage kick should not be a hard rule to understand. The rules writers are constrained by having to place somewhat common sense situations into appropriate verbiage; sometimes they end up with words and phrases that don�t convey the proper meaning. That is why we have interpreters.

The intent of the rule is to mitigate the penalty on the receiving team for a foul they committed while the ball following a scrimmage kick is in the possession of the kicking team.

Therefore, think in terms of the three possible situations where R could foul:

� Inside or behind the expanded neutral zone.

� Beyond the expanded neutral zone while the ball is in team possession of K.

� After his team has gained possession.

Then apply post-scrimmage kick rules:

� Inside or behind the expanded neutral zone: non-scrimmage kick rules.

� Beyond the expanded neutral zone while the ball is in team possession of K: post-scrimmage kick.

� After his team has gained possession: post-possession.

Non-scrimmage kick rules are treated as though the kick has not occurred. That could be roughing the kicker. R should not be entitled to gain possession of the ball.

On a post-scrimmage kick the ball is either in the air or has hit the ground and is bouncing around. R is entitled to the ball, but the foul must be penalized. Apply post-scrimmage kick rules. That type of foul is most common when the ball has hit the ground and is bounding around. A zealous R player trying to keep a K player from the ball blocks in the back or clips the player.

Once R has gained player and team possession or the ball is dead, R is definitely entitled to the ball. Any foul is post-possession and will be penalized as a running play. An example would be the receiver has the ball and is moving up field. A teammate blocking holds a K player.

Don�t be confused by the new rules on post-scrimmage kicks: Identifying the occurrence is simple, and so is the enforcement."



Read more: Officiating.com : Football : Post-Scrimmage Kick Again! — Part II — What about that play?



Procivil

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by procivil

Otherwise a roughing the kicker penalty would classify as a PSK.

No it wouldn't, due to another requirement of the PSK rule that the foul must occur beyond the expanded neutral zone.

The rule did initially state that the foul was at the snap but it has been since changed.

[procivil]

You are correct, Welpe; thanks for the clarification. I still believe PSK starts at the kick instead of the snap. PSK is all about not over-penalizing R/B to the extent that they lose possession. Simply stated: In order to be awarded possession, the receiving team must have "clean hands" to the point in which the ball crosses the neutral zone.