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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 01:30pm
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Did I handle my mistake correctly?

I worked an 8th grade boys game last night. Team A was bigger, quicker, and more athletic than Team B so it quickly became a blowout. In the 2nd quarter Team A scored to make it 24-7, then continued their full court press. Team B coach starts hollering at me "they can't press with a 15-point lead!"

[Mea Culpa: I was unaware of that MS rule for this league. Yes, I should've known (or asked) about the 'no press' rule prior to the tip, so I recognize and admit my mistake.]

By the time I figured out what he was saying, Team B already had the ball over half court. I was trail on the bench side so I said, "Coach, I was unaware of that league rule" and let them play on. He yelled, "aren't you going to blow the whistle or something?" Just then his team turned the ball over (again) and Team A scored on a fast break. I immediately blew my whistle for an officials' time out and went to the table to verify, where the scorer and Team A coach confirmed the 15-pt no press rule was in effect.

I reminded Team A they could no longer press, apologized to the coach of Team B for not knowing the rule, then put the ball back in play on the end line for Team A.

I didn't blow the play dead when I realized what he was saying because a) his team was already in the front court, and b) I didn't know if he was right. So I waited until it became an issue in the game again. Should I have handled it differently?


On the plus side, I was aware of the 30-pt running clock rule, so the second half only took about 20 minutes.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 01:35pm
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Without knowing the penalty for the rule (don't know if there should have been a penalty on B for pressing the first time), I would have handled it exactly as you did. I wouldn't feel bad about not knowing the rule, either - it's an abnormal rule and one that you wouldn't even know to ask about.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 01:35pm
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Team B coach wants a whistle when team B has the ball already over half court??
Wow!
Sounds like you did the right thing to me....
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 01:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kblehman
I worked an 8th grade boys game last night. Team A was bigger, quicker, and more athletic than Team B so it quickly became a blowout. In the 2nd quarter Team A scored to make it 24-7, then continued their full court press. Team B coach starts hollering at me "they can't press with a 15-point lead!"

[Mea Culpa: I was unaware of that MS rule for this league. Yes, I should've known (or asked) about the 'no press' rule prior to the tip, so I recognize and admit my mistake.]

By the time I figured out what he was saying, Team B already had the ball over half court. I was trail on the bench side so I said, "Coach, I was unaware of that league rule" and let them play on. He yelled, "aren't you going to blow the whistle or something?" Just then his team turned the ball over (again) and Team A scored on a fast break. I immediately blew my whistle for an officials' time out and went to the table to verify, where the scorer and Team A coach confirmed the 15-pt no press rule was in effect.

I reminded Team A they could no longer press, apologized to the coach of Team B for not knowing the rule, then put the ball back in play on the end line for Team A.

I didn't blow the play dead when I realized what he was saying because a) his team was already in the front court, and b) I didn't know if he was right. So I waited until it became an issue in the game again. Should I have handled it differently?


On the plus side, I was aware of the 30-pt running clock rule, so the second half only took about 20 minutes.
Yes you did fine...you are correct while it is our responsibility to know the rules, I don't put the same weight into rules like these vs. recognized fed rules...I still enforce them, but they are usually so vague, even when you know about them it is tough to be consistent....you are correct, there was no harm in that situation so what did he want you to do? Blow the whistle and give it to his team to inbound (so it could probably be stolen and have a layup at the other end)?
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 01:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kblehman
I worked an 8th grade boys game last night. Team A was bigger, quicker, and more athletic than Team B so it quickly became a blowout. In the 2nd quarter Team A scored to make it 24-7, then continued their full court press. Team B coach starts hollering at me "they can't press with a 15-point lead!"

[Mea Culpa: I was unaware of that MS rule for this league. Yes, I should've known (or asked) about the 'no press' rule prior to the tip, so I recognize and admit my mistake.]

By the time I figured out what he was saying, Team B already had the ball over half court. I was trail on the bench side so I said, "Coach, I was unaware of that league rule" and let them play on. He yelled, "aren't you going to blow the whistle or something?" Just then his team turned the ball over (again) and Team A scored on a fast break. I immediately blew my whistle for an officials' time out and went to the table to verify, where the scorer and Team A coach confirmed the 15-pt no press rule was in effect.

I reminded Team A they could no longer press, apologized to the coach of Team B for not knowing the rule, then put the ball back in play on the end line for Team A.

I didn't blow the play dead when I realized what he was saying because a) his team was already in the front court, and b) I didn't know if he was right. So I waited until it became an issue in the game again. Should I have handled it differently?


On the plus side, I was aware of the 30-pt running clock rule, so the second half only took about 20 minutes.
I do my fair share of grammar school games and it seems like every conference/school has different rules. One conference literally has two pages of additional rules applying to 6,7,8th grade boys and girls.

Just me, I don't feel obligated to 'master' these addendums.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 02:06pm
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I really hate different sets of rules for every conference/gym but especially HATE them when you are informed of some rule, and are expected to enforce it - but there is no penalty whatsoever. No penalty - fahgedaboudit!


When I get into a gym I have always wanted to ask if they are using any of the Fed rules or if they go strictly with their own book.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 02:10pm
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The "no press" rule is the best...so you have team A trying to push the ball on a break and they hit a B player in the back with the ball. The B player turns around and picks it up and you have the A coach screaming "NO PRESS!"....silliness....if you want to push the ball up then you risk having it stolen! This is what I mean about these goofy rules though, you can't expect to have consistency b/c they are fake rules...
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 02:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP
Team B coach wants a whistle when team B has the ball already over half court?? Wow!
Sounds like you did the right thing to me....
Well, when he said it the first time they weren't yet over half court and I was still trailing the play. By the time I got close enough to understand what he said they were safely in the front court, so I figured why blow the whistle now?

I think mostly he was frustrated because his team had no chance. I think the final was about 55-20.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 02:16pm
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I agree - hate the no press rule. This also gives a team "free ins" like we used to play on playground in gradeschool. I cringe when you have an inbounding situation on frontcourt endline and they banana pass to the backcourt because D can't go there because of a no press rule.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 02:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
Without knowing the penalty for the rule (don't know if there should have been a penalty on B for pressing the first time), I would have handled it exactly as you did. I wouldn't feel bad about not knowing the rule, either - it's an abnormal rule and one that you wouldn't even know to ask about.
The 15-pt no press rule is often used in kids' tournaments. I guess this league decided to use it for MS games, too. There's really no penalty -- we're just expected to tell the defense to fall back to half court once a rebound is secured. If a steal takes place we blow it dead and give it back to the offense.

I can live with a no-press rule. It's the "no zone" rule (in kid's tournaments) I hate. Nearly impossible to watch for and enforce while watching the play too. And coaches go nuts if they see a defender not closing guarding his man, even if his man is OB.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 02:25pm
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I occassionally work a youth league that has a no press rule. This may be the most poorly defined rule ever.

What exactly constitutes a press? Does that mean no playing defense in the back court? Does it mean pulling back to the three point line? Somewhere in between?

What if there's a turnover out top? Does the old offense/new defense have to let the kid go unguarded until he crosses the half line? What if the defender, while just running downcourt and not guarding anybody, is able to reach out and snag a pass or pick up a loose ball?

And what is the penalty? Just blow it dead and give it back to the team?

If leagues are going to make up rules, they need to think it through better.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 02:30pm
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In our local kids rec league, there are rules differences in 3/4, 5/6, 7/8 and HS levels. Of course we give each ref a copy of the rules and have meetings to go over them before the season starts. However, it still can get confusing, especially if you work different levels on the same day.

So.....here's what I do. I make up a rules "matrix". It's a grid that shows the grade level on the top, the situation on the left side (defense allowed, timeouts, quarter timing, etc.) and then the rule for that level where they intersect. It's just a standard Excel file. The refs carry it in their bags with their rules and just check it before the game. Sometimes, they put it out on the table. It's easy to make up and it really helps.

Obviously, I could have put a "Matrix" pic here, but that would have been too easy.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 02:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kblehman
The 15-pt no press rule is often used in kids' tournaments. I guess this league decided to use it for MS games, too. There's really no penalty -- we're just expected to tell the defense to fall back to half court once a rebound is secured. If a steal takes place we blow it dead and give it back to the offense.

I can live with a no-press rule. It's the "no zone" rule (in kid's tournaments) I hate. Nearly impossible to watch for and enforce while watching the play too. And coaches go nuts if they see a defender not closing guarding his man, even if his man is OB.
I agree 100%. especially about the no zone rule, although I had to enforce it consistently in one league and once I got used to it, I kinda liked it, although not for good officiating reasons. It gave me a chance to slow down the players that are just a lot better than the others, which I know, I know I'm not supposed to be doing, but in this league (5th/6th grade girls) I felt a little better . But it was very hard for a couple of players to get the hang of since they were playing on travel teams during the week, and they couldn't see why now they weren't allowed to drop down into the key and go for the steal.

The trick to these things is to explain to the coaches before the game starts that you're not used to enforcing these, and if they start shouting, you're going to stop the game, and make them agree about the rules before the game goes on. Otherwise, you're just making it up yourself as you go along, and that's definitely no good.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 02:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
In our local kids rec league, there are rules differences in 3/4, 5/6, 7/8 and HS levels. Of course we give each ref a copy of the rules and have meetings to go over them before the season starts. However, it still can get confusing, especially if you work different levels on the same day.

So.....here's what I do. I make up a rules "matrix". It's a grid that shows the grade level on the top, the situation on the left side (defense allowed, timeouts, quarter timing, etc.) and then the rule for that level where they intersect. It's just a standard Excel file. The refs carry it in their bags with their rules and just check it before the game. Sometimes, they put it out on the table. It's easy to make up and it really helps.

Obviously, I could have put a "Matrix" pic here, but that would have been too easy.
As a ref in this league, I can tell you, this is just a great tool. It's terrific to hand to someone who's just filling in for that one week in an emergency. It's great to have at the table for coaches and parents to refer to. I recommend it.
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Old Thu Dec 13, 2007, 02:35pm
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MS here says no press until the last minute of each half, and then only by the team trailing (or maybe it's by the team not leading, not sure). It's actually defined as backcourt defense (including throwins).

Penalty?
1. Talk to the defense.
2. Talk to the defense.
3. Blow it dead, give the ball to A for a throwin.
4. If it's a repeated problem, a T can be issued.

All that for $12.50/game?
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