Did I handle this situation correctly?

[JollyJim]

Last night in a men's league tournament, we had this situation: Mark is the runner at 1B and Bubba (yes that really is his name) is the batter. Bubba rips a liner down the line that hits Mark while he is still standing on 1B. Mark falls to the ground in foul territory as the ball rolls across the infield and Bubba advances to 1B. I make no call yet because I believe the pay is still live since Mark was still on the base when hit. The second baseman throws the ball to second, with Mark still lying on the ground. The base umpire makes no call, so I call "time" and call Mark out at second. Mark and Bubba both protest because - to my surprise - the base umpire had call "time" during the play because it hit Mark. Mark and Bubba both claimed Mark didn't advance to second because "time" had been called. - - My ruling, after confirming with the BU that he did call "time", was that Mark never made an attempt to advance, even before "time" was called, and therefore was forced out at second.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by JollyJim

Last night in a men's league tournament, we had this situation: Mark is the runner at 1B and Bubba (yes that really is his name) is the batter. Bubba rips a liner down the line that hits Mark while he is still standing on 1B. Mark falls to the ground in foul territory as the ball rolls across the infield and Bubba advances to 1B. I make no call yet because I believe the pay is still live since Mark was still on the base when hit. The second baseman throws the ball to second, with Mark still lying on the ground. The base umpire makes no call, so I call "time" and call Mark out at second. Mark and Bubba both protest because - to my surprise - the base umpire had call "time" during the play because it hit Mark. Mark and Bubba both claimed Mark didn't advance to second because "time" had been called. - - My ruling, after confirming with the BU that he did call "time", was that Mark never made an attempt to advance, even before "time" was called, and therefore was forced out at second.

You don't state the ruleset you are using, but in most (and assuming F3 is behind the runner), Mark is out immediately and the ball is dead. In most rulesets, the base is only a safehaven in an IFF situation.

PS - are you sure the ball was fair?

[archangel]

ASA says that the base runner hit by a fair ball while on base is safe, ball is dead, BR gets 1st, which moves the "hit" baserunner to 2nd.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

You don't state the ruleset you are using, but in most (and assuming F3 is behind the runner), Mark is out immediately and the ball is dead. In most rulesets, the base is only a safehaven in an IFF situation.

PS - are you sure the ball was fair?

This isn't baseball

Speaking ASA. If F3 was behind R1, the ball is dead, the BR is awarded 1B and any runners forced are advanced.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

You don't state the ruleset you are using, but in most (and assuming F3 is behind the runner), Mark is out immediately and the ball is dead. In most rulesets, the base is only a safehaven in an IFF situation.

PS - are you sure the ball was fair?

This isn't baseball

Speaking NFHS, NSA, ISA and probably Little League. If F3 was behind R1, the ball is dead, the BR is awarded 1B and any runners forced are advanced.

[NDblue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA. If F3 was behind R1, the ball is dead, the BR is awarded 1B and any runners forced are advanced.

Does it really matter where F3 is located? If the ball hit a batter while still in contact with the base and the ball is fair batted, isn't it still a "live" ball? I would have no call, BU doesn't call time in my games at the plate, runner out at second because of force, runner on first and let's play ball. I'm still trying to figure out why Mark fell into foul territory.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by NDblue

Does it really matter where F3 is located?

If the runner is in contact with the base when hit by the ball, the runner is not out.

If the ball hits the runner before it passes an infielder other than the pitcher, it is a dead ball. If the ball hits the runner after it passes an infielder, it probably will be a live ball unless other fielders could make a play. (After "unless" varies slightly by which set of rules are being used.)

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by NDblue

Does it really matter where F3 is located? If the ball hit a batter while still in contact with the base and the ball is fair batted, isn't it still a "live" ball? I would have no call, BU doesn't call time in my games at the plate, runner out at second because of force, runner on first and let's play ball. I'm still trying to figure out why Mark fell into foul territory.

If F3 is in front of the base, the ball remains alive, as there was no play, and thus no matter that the ball hit R1. If F3 is behind the base, and perhaps had a play, that causes the ball to be dead when it hits R1. If runner is on the base, dead ball, BR given 1st, others advance only if forced.

While I agree that BU doesn't call "time", BU should call a dead ball; and this was one, by rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NDblue

Does it really matter where F3 is located? If the ball hit a batter while still in contact with the base and the ball is fair batted, isn't it still a "live" ball? I would have no call, BU doesn't call time in my games at the plate, runner out at second because of force, runner on first and let's play ball. I'm still trying to figure out why Mark fell into foul territory.

You really need to reread POE #44 on page 156 of the 2006 ASA rule book. You're ruling would be incorrect if the closest defender was not playing in front of R1.

BTW, any umpire may kill the play at any time if the situation or rules require it.

[bigsig]

If the base umpire thought the runner might be injured: Rule 4, sec 10 "During a live ball situatuion, when a player becomes injured,and in the umpires judgement requires attention, the umpire shall call 'dead ball' and award any bases that would have been reached." Runner was on the base can not be called out, therefore stopping play and awarding the rummer 2nd and the BR 1st is the right call.

[JollyJim]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

If F3 is in front of the base, the ball remains alive, as there was no play, and thus no matter that the ball hit R1. If F3 is behind the base, and perhaps had a play, that causes the ball to be dead when it hits R1. If runner is on the base, dead ball, BR given 1st, others advance only if forced.

While I agree that BU doesn't call "time", BU should call a dead ball; and this was one, by rule.

F3 was behind the baseline, but definitely had no play on the ball. He was playing off the line, and the ball was obviously traveling fast enough and was hit close enough to the first base line that F3 had no play on the ball.

[JollyJim]

Originally Posted by NDblue

Does it really matter where F3 is located? If the ball hit a batter while still in contact with the base and the ball is fair batted, isn't it still a "live" ball? I would have no call, BU doesn't call time in my games at the plate, runner out at second because of force, runner on first and let's play ball. I'm still trying to figure out why Mark fell into foul territory.

This was my thinking on the matter, although I may have been wrong.... and I'm still trying to figure out why Mark fell at all!!! The guy is built like Tarzan and definitely wasn't knocked down. Guess he just felt it was the thing to do...since he wasn't gonna make it to second anyway. And here's another kicker that was brought to my attention in discussing with our UIC, who wasn't there at the time. The batter/runner crossed 1B while Mark was still on the ground in foul territory beside 1B. Wouldn't that make the batter/runner out for passing R1?

[SC Ump]

I have not seen where you said what rule set you were under, but as far as I know all softball codes agree with the following responses:

Originally Posted by JollyJim

F3 was behind the baseline, but definitely had no play on the ball.

If the ball has not passed a fielder (other than the pitcher) it is dead. It does not matter if F3 did or did not have a play on the ball.

Originally Posted by JollyJim

And here's another kicker that was brought to my attention in discussing with our UIC, who wasn't there at the time. The batter/runner crossed 1B while Mark was still on the ground in foul territory beside 1B. Wouldn't that make the batter/runner out for passing R1?

1. The ball was dead when it hit "Mark", so what happen subsequently does not matter.
2. If there were a play where B1 was on 1B and was remaining in contact with 1B and B/R overran 1B (not advancing to 2B, but just overrunning), this would not be passing the runner. In the original play above, if F3 had been in front 1B it would have been a live ball. If everything else was the same, with Mark falling into foul territory, I do not believe I would have judged that Mark was retreating to home plate and thus I would not have ruled B/R had passed him.

(Note: I realize "retreating to home" might bring up a whole other discussion. Before it starts, and if it does, remember that in softball, it is a dead ball and an out if a B/R retreats to home to avoid a tag.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

This isn't baseball

Speaking ASA. If F3 was behind R1, the ball is dead, the BR is awarded 1B and any runners forced are advanced.

I hate it when I do that! Consider my initial response retracted. It's dead wrong. (Although ... doesn't USSSA have this in there - not sure - all I know of U-Trip is what I have learned and read here).

[greymule]

There could be one exception in softball.

The 2004 NSA rulebook (8-9-k) says:

"[The] baserunner is not out . . . when the runner is in contact with the base, and is hit by a batted fly or ground ball in fair territory (unless he intentionally interferes with the ball), the baserunner is not out [yes, it's redundant] and the ball is dead. Effect: Ball is dead and all runners advance one base if forced."

I think I remember having heard that NSA since changed this rule to match ASA (that is, the call is determined by the position of the nearest fielder), but I'm not sure.

The 2004 NSA book seems not to have considered the possibility that if F3 was playing in, a ground ball could go right through his legs and then hit R1 standing on the bag. While a ball going through F3's legs and hitting a runner off a base would be in play, Rule 8-9-k doesn't note that exception. So we're left wondering which criterion overrides—the ball having passed a fielder or the runner's being on the base.