Illegal motion

[stegenref]

So I'm working a JV last night and I have two wide receivers to my side, both on the line. The widest one turns to me and asks if he's off the line, so I told him, "No, you're on the line, you need to scoot back." As he's taking a few steps backwards, the ball is snapped. Of course, this happened right in front of the defense's sideline and their coach heard the entire thing, so he starts going nuts, saying it was a false start or illegal motion or something. I kept officiating, and the other wide receiver on my side, the one that was closer to the LOS and on the line, ended up catching a twenty yard pass and running another ten. The coach is screaming and yelling at me the entire play. I didn't know what to do, so I told him it was my fault the kid was moving and he didn't end up having any effect on the play...he just ended up running five yards downfield and stopping. His argument was that the play never should've happened. They were down like 28-0 at this point by the way, almost at the end of the first half, so the coach was in a bad mood already.

So to appease him, I called time-out and went out and explained to my WH and U what was going on. They said since the widest receiver was moving backwards at the snap, it was not a false start and not illegal motion. The WH went over to explain it to the coach and then he starts complaining that the inner receiver went downfield illegally...but he wasn't covered up at the snap because the widest receiver had moved back by then. The coach wasn't listening by then, he was so mad.

[bigjohn]

You should have stopped with, you are on. That is all the info you should give a kid in this situation. Don't coach just officiate.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by stegenref

So I'm working a JV last night and I have two wide receivers to my side, both on the line. The widest one turns to me and asks if he's off the line, so I told him, "No, you're on the line, you need to scoot back." As he's taking a few steps backwards, the ball is snapped. Of course, this happened right in front of the defense's sideline and their coach heard the entire thing, so he starts going nuts, saying it was a false start or illegal motion or something. I kept officiating, and the other wide receiver on my side, the one that was closer to the LOS and on the line, ended up catching a twenty yard pass and running another ten. The coach is screaming and yelling at me the entire play. I didn't know what to do, so I told him it was my fault the kid was moving and he didn't end up having any effect on the play...he just ended up running five yards downfield and stopping. His argument was that the play never should've happened. They were down like 28-0 at this point by the way, almost at the end of the first half, so the coach was in a bad mood already.

So to appease him, I called time-out and went out and explained to my WH and U what was going on. They said since the widest receiver was moving backwards at the snap, it was not a false start and not illegal motion. The WH went over to explain it to the coach and then he starts complaining that the inner receiver went downfield illegally...but he wasn't covered up at the snap because the widest receiver had moved back by then. The coach wasn't listening by then, he was so mad.

Your WH and U need to get in the book a little more. For his motion to be legal when he starts on the line, he has to establish himself as a back by resetting or being 5 yards or more behind the LOS at the snap [7-2-7]. Based on your description it doesn't sound like he was 5+ deep.

That said - there's no way I'm flagging false start or motion when I'm moving a receiver unless there is an advantage gained.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

You should have stopped with, you are on. That is all the info you should give a kid in this situation. Don't coach just officiate.

I agree with bigjohn...scary as that might be.

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

Your WH and U need to get in the book a little more. For his motion to be legal when he starts on the line, he has to establish himself as a back by resetting or being 5 yards or more behind the LOS at the snap [7-2-7]. Based on your description it doesn't sound like he was 5+ deep.

That said - there's no way I'm flagging false start or motion when I'm moving a receiver unless there is an advantage gained.

I agree. Technically this motion is not legal however I'm letting this one go.

[Bullycon]

Technically speaking, it was illegal motion if he was not at least five yards behind the line of scrimmage at the snap, since he was not a back when he started his motion. (7-3-7. Foul at the snap. Five yard penalty from previous spot.) It was certainly not a false start. The other receiver was not ineligible.

As bigjohn said, this is a great reason to never tell a player to move. How do you tell a player to move, and then flag him when he does? How do you not flag an obvious foul right in front of the opposing coach?

Best to avoid that dilemma altogether. During youth games, I have no reservations about giving instructions to get the players to line up correctly. By middle school, I don't have to do that. Shouldn't have to during JV, either. Tell them, "You're on," or, "You're off," and if they want to move, they can do so on their own. Then call fouls as appropriate.

[mikesears]

Sounds like you did the right thing for the level of the game except for stopping the game and consulting with the R and U. Your explanation to the coach was adequate and he was probably just working you.

[stegenref]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

You should have stopped with, you are on. That is all the info you should give a kid in this situation. Don't coach just officiate.

This is only my second year, but I've heard that several times "Don't coach, just officiate"...didn't understand it until last night. I've also been working some youth football games on Saturdays (down to age 5-6) and in that league we do a lot of helping out with getting the kids lined up and stuff. I just need to realize that I need to switch gears at different levels.

[ChickenOfNC]

Originally Posted by Bullycon

Technically speaking, it was illegal motion if he was not at least five yards behind the line of scrimmage at the snap, since he was not a back when he started his motion. (7-3-7. Foul at the snap. Five yard penalty from previous spot.) It was certainly not a false start. The other receiver was not ineligible.

As bigjohn said, this is a great reason to never tell a player to move. How do you tell a player to move, and then flag him when he does? How do you not flag an obvious foul right in front of the opposing coach?

Best to avoid that dilemma altogether. During youth games, I have no reservations about giving instructions to get the players to line up correctly. By middle school, I don't have to do that. Shouldn't have to during JV, either. Tell them, "You're on," or, "You're off," and if they want to move, they can do so on their own. Then call fouls as appropriate.

I agree with this. Although I think in situations where you try to move a player "out of" a foul, it may be warranted.

Example: Telling a kid who lined up near the sideline before the ready to move inside the numbers. The flag is going to fly if he doesn't move, so telling him to move is giving him a chance to get legal. If doesn't get set before the snap, etc., is on him, as he was getting a flag anyway. Thoughts?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mikesears

Sounds like you did the right thing for the level of the game except for stopping the game and consulting with the R and U. Your explanation to the coach was adequate and he was probably just working you.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with it either. Not all JV games are created equal.

I wouldn't have flagged it either and would've shut the coach down sooner.

I don't work wings much anymore (I'm a WH on Fridays) but when I go out there I don't put up with a lot of yelling at the lower levels. The coaches need to spend more time coaching and less time worrying about us. It isn't the NFL or even HS varsity.

[Refsmitty]

I get real tired at the JV and V level of telling them their on or off - they should know that if I punch into backfield they are off and be able to look down the line of scrimmage to see if they are on or encroaching. Thoughts?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't work wings much anymore (I'm a WH on Fridays) but when I go out there I don't put up with a lot of yelling at the lower levels. The coaches need to spend more time coaching and less time worrying about us. It isn't the NFL or even HS varsity.

I agree. Get them back on task.

[stegenref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I wouldn't have flagged it either and would've shut the coach down sooner.

OK, how do you "shut a coach down"? I wasn't really too confident that I hadn't blown the call, so it would've be hard to argue with him, but in the future, what do you say to a coach who is going nuts like that? He was a relatively young coach...probably in his late 20s...they seem to be the worst from what I've seen.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by stegenref

OK, how do you "shut a coach down"? I wasn't really too confident that I hadn't blown the call, so it would've be hard to argue with him, but in the future, what do you say to a coach who is going nuts like that? He was a relatively young coach...probably in his late 20s...they seem to be the worst from what I've seen.

I would probably tell him something along the lines of... "Coach _____, I've listened to your concerns and explained my position. We're going to have to move on now." At that point, I'd ignore anything he says regarding the action on that play unless it rises to the level of earning him a USC foul.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by Refsmitty

I get real tired at the JV and V level of telling them their on or off - they should know that if I punch into backfield they are off and be able to look down the line of scrimmage to see if they are on or encroaching. Thoughts?

My crew goes over this with the head coach in our pre-game meeting. We inform them that the punch into the backfield means "off the line" and anything else means "on the line" for the nearest receiver. We also explicitly mention that if a receiver asks "am I good?" we can't answer that question, because we don't know where they're supposed to be lined up.

When I was a wing (I'm an umpire now), I would respond with "yes" or "no" if the receiver explicitly asked "am I on/off?". If they just point or look at me, I don't say anything.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by stegenref

OK, how do you "shut a coach down"? I wasn't really too confident that I hadn't blown the call, so it would've be hard to argue with him, but in the future, what do you say to a coach who is going nuts like that? He was a relatively young coach...probably in his late 20s...they seem to be the worst from what I've seen.

Don't ever argue or try to justify a call. Just shut down the bad behavior.

"I hear what you're saying. Move on." If he doesn't, a flag for USC will get his undivided attention.

I'm serious.